Guestbook Archive (2001-2022)
Historic entries from the original TvindAlert.com
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I have been involved in several Danida projekts, and the salaries payed for tvind members involvement in tvind projects suprise me. Only the most experienced and well educated in the projects I have been involved in, can match the saleries that the Tvind organisation pays its project-leaders. I wounder why somebody would pay someone with only pour competances that kind of money. Wouldn't they be better spend in humanitarien projekts right away, insted of being transferred to other foundations ore companies, in such a suspicious way?
Richard Arnaud (France)
"Whould you get angry if someone start to demand where you spend your private money?"
I certainly would, particularly if my co-workers demanded that I put my money into some shit like Flleseje...
Yes, but if this is even in part from clothes donations this is essentially *other people's* money.
And:
* what 'fund'? * what exactly is the money used for? * how accountable is it? * do people giving old clothes in Europe realise their gift is not supporting a project leader, but instead is going to Tvind? * if they did, would they still give? * why isn't any of this stated publicly and on their boxes?
yes, it is so that TG members wages go to the fund, but this is their own choice. Tell me when you get your salary arne't you free to choose what to do with it? Whould you get angry if someone start to demand where you spend your private money?
On the question of how much money Tvind 'makes' from its projects, I don't think anyone has mentioned the financing of Teachers Group Project leaders. As I understand it (any way, this is what I have been told) the project leaders are paid quite high salaries in line with the kind of sums qualified aid workers abroad usually get - this is perfectly normal. These salaries are financed from the sale of old clothes in Europe and eastern Europe. Again, so far, quite normal.
Where DAPP and co differ from the usual NGO world is that the project leaders never actually see the money. Because of the 'common time, common economy' principle, which is all highly principled and very laudable, they have opetd to be paid pocket money and expenses rather than a salary. If the salaries are paid out as project costs on paper, in practice the money either stays with or is returned to one of the Tvind financial funds somewhere. With, what is it?, say 250 project leaders each earning say $60,000 that is a lot of money with big accountability and tax implications.
This could also have something to do with the persistent reports of suitcases stuffed with money being carried by TG members by plane from southern Africa to Veije, as claimed in the Danish TV documentary this year. There certainly seems to be something to explain here.
Any comments?
heh, well I have to agree that you are right on that one.
But even so, it does show that tvind is not making 'mega profit' from these volunteer programs.
They are probably breaking even, which is what they should officially be doing
Actually opportunity cost is the cost of doing one thing as opposed to doing another. So the correct use of this would be the amount of money you could earn during the eight months of working with Tvind in the US minus the costs of supporting yourself in the US and Africa for 14 months which you estimate as $7000.
Assume that you have a 40 per week job that pays $7/hr (fairly low pay by the way). In eight months you would earn 40 * 7 * 34.5 weeks = $9,660 so the opportunity cost of doing a CCTG program versus going on your own is $1660.
But then again you don't get the "educational experience" of fundraising... :)
Lars
i dont think so even in denmark you can make the cv look good, you just dont mention tvinds name.
only Denmark and 50/50% sweeden would recognise tvind,humana, any other country mainly uk/france/germany etc would not know or care usa only might recognise planet aid, I have read Harvard reports and lecture notes, praising humana as 1 ngo in a list of many,
ON a cv the name is fine. if your worried dont say tvind, which you would not be working for anway, you would have been working for adpp or dapp which have quite good names around the world,
In denmark or sweeden you worked for adpp , none in dnemark knows who that is, not the recruiting office anyway, or you were simply working in africa for a foreign orgnaisation in partnership with major ngo's
"Doing this program also looks very good on your cv for future jobs you might apply for"
Not if any of those future jobs happen to be in Northern Europe!!!
This is what your cv might look like to an employer in say, Denmark:
1993-1997 Smallville High (honor roll, debating society, football team) 1997-2001 Metro College (dean's list, peer counseling) 2001-2004 Cult Membership (hmm...) 2004-...
Another point. (see also post below this counter to lars)
To those saying that the figures quoted as costing the participant if he were to live himself for those 14 months , not being met by tvind since their costs are so much lower.
Basically that is not the point. I would guess some of you know what opportunity cost is? It means that it does not matter what the costs to tvind are (or how cheaply they can put you through the program).
what matters is the cost to each individual if he were not doing this program. The cost of living yourself own flat (very low quality sub standard) 300 a month. Sub standard food, 200 a month. 500 a month x 8 is 4,000 , + the cost of 6 months you would be in africa food/accomodation minus the glorius sunshine people/women. 2,000 = total 6,000 (not including if u were to take own flight to africa then+1,000 =7,000) That is the cost to live by yourself 8 months and then go to africa for 6 months.
Now the cost of working with tvind for a year. If you are in the 75% who does not pay initial fee to join program then your costs so far for 8 months are 0. you are also in the 75% that sucks at street fundraising and does some invented job, your financial cost for those 5 or 6 weeks easy work?? 0
The real cost then to joining the program for most participants could be noted as 0, and the opportunity cost of not joining as 7,000
(please see post below this for other important general info)
DL ex volunteer dvldvl@hotmail.com
To Lars and others
You are saying then that financially you are getting half of what you pay. Now that is in theory (according to your figures) if people are actually meeting those targets. Have you been a volunteer with this organisation??
I have. no one makes these targets maybe one person a year out of 900. 75% dont pay the initial program costs (more pay in usa programs very little pay the initial fee in denmark)
And for fundraising, again most people are lucky if they make 25% of the target on the street. Most of the time they suck so bad the school has to make other plans and effectivley invent jobs which do not exisit so the people can finish their fundraising. they pay the students fees from these 'invented jobs' thus incuring more financial loss. Typical job might be painting a few walls in one of the schools which dont need painting. Do this for a few weeks and you have earned the easiest $3,000 you will in your entire life.
So all in all, I would say, if you average it out, tvind makes no profit form these schools, (a loss on most students) the volunteers themselves do get a useful learning experience and they dont not have to be degree educated or whatever to get it .
Alternative gap year programs for volunteering/teaching abroad can cost up to $3000 for only 12 weeks. (how much profit do these organisations make form it???)
Doing this program also looks very good on your cv for future jobs you might apply for.I know very many people form my time as a volunteer who have gone on to reach the highest tier in their chosen industry. And their first break came because of this 1 year gap year with Humana. When your 23 just finished your degree and then gone to Africa for a year and helped manage a project or been responsible for educating 2,000 aids victims that makes for some good employment prospects.
DL
It would be interesting to know the cost per squarmeter the schools pay rent to the owners of their schoolbuildings. How big percentage from the schools' budget goes to paying rent? And further, who are the owners of the schoolbuildings? A fund, a company...owned by whom? I a w:Who takes care of that money? Any headmaster from any Tvind-school feeling urge to answer?
Sigge
Oops...the formatting got messed up. Here are my estimates on the direct costs of a CCTG program.
Food $ 480 Flights $ 1,650 Housing $ 752 Utilities/Phone $ 200 Vaccinations $ 150 Misc $ 600 subtotal $ 3,832
35 percent overhead $ 1,341 TOTAL $ 5,173
I'm really not sure how one should cost the "educational costs" of a CCTG program since it appears that the majority of the education is the TG's experiential education, i.e., fund-raising, housekeeping, that doesn't cost the TG anything and is essential for the continued functioning of the place.
Regards......Lars
I am not arguing that TG programs are not less expensive but that their costs are so low (after all a point of pride is getting things for free) that there is plenty of money account for.
For example, take a CCTG program of 14 months. 6 months of prep in Yreka, CA, 6 months in Africa and 2 months back in Yreka. The cost of the program is $3,300 and participants are expect to raise an additional $7000 for a total of $10,300. This money covers food, accomindations, any "educational" materials, flights to Africa, vaccinations. According to the CCTG website, Humana covers the expenses in Africa....so let's do the math.
Food = $2 per day * 30 days * 8 months Flight = $1650 (what I could find for a flight from SFO to Harare, Zimbabwee - I'm sure there are cheaper ways to go) Housing = I found a listing for a two bedroom appartment in Yreka for $376 to judge what "market rate" is. Assume 2 people per room = $94 per month * 8 months = $752 Utilities/Phone = $25 per month * 8 months = 200 Vaccinations = I don't really know, how about $150 Misc. = 600
This comes out to a grand total of $3832 of direct costs. Assume 35 percent overhead (to cover admin and outreach) and you still only get about $5200 or about half of what people pay and fundraise
Of course these figures are not the actual cost structure of CCTG but I bet they are close. You can fiddle around a bit but still have a lot left.
Lars
The fact of the matter is that price is really beyond the point here. The difference between Tvind and most other Development charities is that Tvind has a sect-like structure complete with an old guru at the top sippin' cocktails on his penthouse terrace and laughing his ass over both all the idealisitc young volunteers and all the old wanna-be "hippie" teachers that unknowingly or not fund his lavish lifestyle.
Yours,
*<:-)
Hmm, looks like you guys learned your maths at the Moscow School of Economics back in "the day"...
Hello
I like that we are talking mathematics here. Food, housing, transport, airtravel etc costs some money for sure. If you look upon what it costs to do other volunteer programs is it very cheap to do it at one of the Travelling Folk High schools. Check out volunteer programs by yourseelves. You have for ex. Cross cultural solutions that charges a considerable bigger amount for much shorter programs
hmmm...but if paid the entire amount in cash you would miss out (gasp) on the "learning experience" of fundraising......
a couple more comments on the math here, while it may cost 300 pounds for a flat and 200 pounds for food on your own these are not the costs that accrue to a TG school. I've always heard the figure of $2 bucks a day for food and who knows how much mortage the TG is paying itself for the housing....during fundraising its free. So the "cost" to Tvind is hardly 4000 pounds unless you include the salaries of the TG members who are busy recruiting the next crop of volunteers.....
too many lies and myths around here, most people just exagerate to feel important or make themself seem 'cool'
Here are some basic truths about costs/fundraising etc
Usually you pay 2,500 pounds or abou $3,500 to join a school in Denmark for 14 months. However, 75% of people do not pay this they do netup whcih involves doing a very very easy job for a month or 2 within the organisation , or they get a scholarship and start right away paying nothing.
Now that leaves the fundraising whcih is about 3,000 pounds,. Instead of paying that amount which most young people could never afford you can fundraise your money, (If you payd it in cash you would not have to fundraise). No matter how bad people say it is, it is a fact it has to be done, the schools needs this 3,000 for your participation in the program. You know this beofre you join.
Now comes the good bit.why complain or moan, saying you are being ripped off.?? Think about it. 14 months is a long time, 8 months in Denmark 6 months africa. If you live in own flat or house back home how much is the rent?? in Uk will cost me at least 300 a month for 1 bedroom flat. For food 200 a month. That is 500 a month x 8 (8 months Denmark) = 4,000 pounds. Then you still have the housing in Africa (cheaper i know but still...) and also you are given a salary more than the locals earn $200 a month or so for your food and essential items.
The total cost of all this to tvind is around 5,000 pounds. You are fundraising about 3,500 (most people dont reach their target or do netup type jobs which over pay and are very generous for the fundraising) On average then each person i would say fundraises 1,000 pounds on the street and makes up rest of money doing easy jobs within the organisation.
so that is 4,000 extra tvind is spending on each person to do this course just in housing/food costs. That is not taking into account the costs of the education/special events like the new year concert/cost of having teahers helping/listening to your whining all the time.
In conclusion, if you look at those basic facts , you will see the truth. and not make up lies about how tvind is taking your money
DL ex volunteer Denmark
The Appeals Court of Western Denmark just ordered DRH-P Sejrens Vej to pay back 4.9 million DKR it received as education funding. Turns out the students spent too much time fundraising and to little hitting the books! Similar cases against the other DRH's likely.
* The Two Wolves Within *
An old Grandfather said to his grandson, who came to him with anger at a friend who had done him an injustice... "Let me tell you a story. I too, at times, have felt great hate for those who have taken so much, with no sorrow for what they do. But hate wears you down, and does not hurt your enemy. It's like taking poison and wishing your enemy would die. I have struggled with these feelings many times. It is as if there are two wolves inside me. One is good and does no harm. He lives in harmony with all around him and does not take offense when no offense was intended. He will only fight when it is right to do so, and in the right way. But...the other wolf... ah! The littlest thing will send him into a fit of temper. He fights everyone, all of the time, for no reason. He cannot think, because his anger and hate are so great. It is helpless anger, for his anger will change nothing. Sometimes it is hard to live with these two wolves inside me, for both of them try to dominate my spirit." The boy looked intently into his Grandfather's eyes and asked, "Which one wins, Grandfather?" The Grandfather smiled and quietly said, "The one I feed." -- A Native American tale told many times around the Sacred Fire
Annsofi, I was never a member of the TG, but I did teach for a short time at a Tvind run school in the US... the responses you got are not at all unusual... After telling one of my very best friends the story of my experiences, his response was: "Well, if what you say is true..." I felt like my believability was forever diminished in his eyes...( and with his comment, my trust in that friendship was forever diminished in my eyes...)... My youngest sister has (upon being shown Tvindalert and having read through much of it), confessed to me that when I got home from Ake Pecha, she remembers thinking that I'd lost it... that I'd gone crazy. I learned to be secretive about my having worked at Ake Pecha, especially during job interviews, because how could I admit that I had worked with children in such a strange and neglectful place.
But the story is so crazy and unbelievable, isn't it? The Tvindalert site has helped me so much to regain a sense that I really did see what I thought I saw, that I really did go through what I went through, and that what my fellow American teacher pieced together about what appeared to be happening, WAS happening... We weren't crazy!!!
It is so sad that we all went through this... most people who get involved in Tvind programming are very well intentioned going into it.. yet many have been really hurt by their involvement with Tvind.
I am glad there is this forum for sharing experiences and ideas... it sounds like it's been as helpful for you as it's been for me... Marianna
For many years I was alone with my toughts, and when I told people about my experienses as a teacher at Tvind, the reaction was mistrust: "noo,could it be that bad..aren`t you overreacting?!". Well, I wasn`t, and now after the last times "bad" publicity and after hours of reading these sites I know I`m not alone either. Unfortunately. Annsofi
I have been involved in several Danida projekts, and the salaries payed for tvind members involvement in tvind projects suprise me. Only the most experienced and well educated in the projects I have been involved in, can match the saleries that the Tvind organisation pays its project-leaders. I wounder why somebody would pay someone with only pour competances that kind of money. Wouldn't they be better spend in humanitarien projekts right away, insted of being transferred to other foundations ore companies, in such a suspicious way?
Richard Arnaud (France)
"Whould you get angry if someone start to demand where you spend your private money?"
I certainly would, particularly if my co-workers demanded that I put my money into some shit like Flleseje...
Yes, but if this is even in part from clothes donations this is essentially *other people's* money.
And:
* what 'fund'? * what exactly is the money used for? * how accountable is it? * do people giving old clothes in Europe realise their gift is not supporting a project leader, but instead is going to Tvind? * if they did, would they still give? * why isn't any of this stated publicly and on their boxes?
yes, it is so that TG members wages go to the fund, but this is their own choice. Tell me when you get your salary arne't you free to choose what to do with it? Whould you get angry if someone start to demand where you spend your private money?
On the question of how much money Tvind 'makes' from its projects, I don't think anyone has mentioned the financing of Teachers Group Project leaders. As I understand it (any way, this is what I have been told) the project leaders are paid quite high salaries in line with the kind of sums qualified aid workers abroad usually get - this is perfectly normal. These salaries are financed from the sale of old clothes in Europe and eastern Europe. Again, so far, quite normal.
Where DAPP and co differ from the usual NGO world is that the project leaders never actually see the money. Because of the 'common time, common economy' principle, which is all highly principled and very laudable, they have opetd to be paid pocket money and expenses rather than a salary. If the salaries are paid out as project costs on paper, in practice the money either stays with or is returned to one of the Tvind financial funds somewhere. With, what is it?, say 250 project leaders each earning say $60,000 that is a lot of money with big accountability and tax implications.
This could also have something to do with the persistent reports of suitcases stuffed with money being carried by TG members by plane from southern Africa to Veije, as claimed in the Danish TV documentary this year. There certainly seems to be something to explain here.
Any comments?
heh, well I have to agree that you are right on that one.
But even so, it does show that tvind is not making 'mega profit' from these volunteer programs.
They are probably breaking even, which is what they should officially be doing
Actually opportunity cost is the cost of doing one thing as opposed to doing another. So the correct use of this would be the amount of money you could earn during the eight months of working with Tvind in the US minus the costs of supporting yourself in the US and Africa for 14 months which you estimate as $7000.
Assume that you have a 40 per week job that pays $7/hr (fairly low pay by the way). In eight months you would earn 40 * 7 * 34.5 weeks = $9,660 so the opportunity cost of doing a CCTG program versus going on your own is $1660.
But then again you don't get the "educational experience" of fundraising... :)
Lars
i dont think so even in denmark you can make the cv look good, you just dont mention tvinds name.
only Denmark and 50/50% sweeden would recognise tvind,humana, any other country mainly uk/france/germany etc would not know or care usa only might recognise planet aid, I have read Harvard reports and lecture notes, praising humana as 1 ngo in a list of many,
ON a cv the name is fine. if your worried dont say tvind, which you would not be working for anway, you would have been working for adpp or dapp which have quite good names around the world,
In denmark or sweeden you worked for adpp , none in dnemark knows who that is, not the recruiting office anyway, or you were simply working in africa for a foreign orgnaisation in partnership with major ngo's
"Doing this program also looks very good on your cv for future jobs you might apply for"
Not if any of those future jobs happen to be in Northern Europe!!!
This is what your cv might look like to an employer in say, Denmark:
1993-1997 Smallville High (honor roll, debating society, football team) 1997-2001 Metro College (dean's list, peer counseling) 2001-2004 Cult Membership (hmm...) 2004-...
Another point. (see also post below this counter to lars)
To those saying that the figures quoted as costing the participant if he were to live himself for those 14 months , not being met by tvind since their costs are so much lower.
Basically that is not the point. I would guess some of you know what opportunity cost is? It means that it does not matter what the costs to tvind are (or how cheaply they can put you through the program).
what matters is the cost to each individual if he were not doing this program. The cost of living yourself own flat (very low quality sub standard) 300 a month. Sub standard food, 200 a month. 500 a month x 8 is 4,000 , + the cost of 6 months you would be in africa food/accomodation minus the glorius sunshine people/women. 2,000 = total 6,000 (not including if u were to take own flight to africa then+1,000 =7,000) That is the cost to live by yourself 8 months and then go to africa for 6 months.
Now the cost of working with tvind for a year. If you are in the 75% who does not pay initial fee to join program then your costs so far for 8 months are 0. you are also in the 75% that sucks at street fundraising and does some invented job, your financial cost for those 5 or 6 weeks easy work?? 0
The real cost then to joining the program for most participants could be noted as 0, and the opportunity cost of not joining as 7,000
(please see post below this for other important general info)
DL ex volunteer dvldvl@hotmail.com
To Lars and others
You are saying then that financially you are getting half of what you pay. Now that is in theory (according to your figures) if people are actually meeting those targets. Have you been a volunteer with this organisation??
I have. no one makes these targets maybe one person a year out of 900. 75% dont pay the initial program costs (more pay in usa programs very little pay the initial fee in denmark)
And for fundraising, again most people are lucky if they make 25% of the target on the street. Most of the time they suck so bad the school has to make other plans and effectivley invent jobs which do not exisit so the people can finish their fundraising. they pay the students fees from these 'invented jobs' thus incuring more financial loss. Typical job might be painting a few walls in one of the schools which dont need painting. Do this for a few weeks and you have earned the easiest $3,000 you will in your entire life.
So all in all, I would say, if you average it out, tvind makes no profit form these schools, (a loss on most students) the volunteers themselves do get a useful learning experience and they dont not have to be degree educated or whatever to get it .
Alternative gap year programs for volunteering/teaching abroad can cost up to $3000 for only 12 weeks. (how much profit do these organisations make form it???)
Doing this program also looks very good on your cv for future jobs you might apply for.I know very many people form my time as a volunteer who have gone on to reach the highest tier in their chosen industry. And their first break came because of this 1 year gap year with Humana. When your 23 just finished your degree and then gone to Africa for a year and helped manage a project or been responsible for educating 2,000 aids victims that makes for some good employment prospects.
DL
It would be interesting to know the cost per squarmeter the schools pay rent to the owners of their schoolbuildings. How big percentage from the schools' budget goes to paying rent? And further, who are the owners of the schoolbuildings? A fund, a company...owned by whom? I a w:Who takes care of that money? Any headmaster from any Tvind-school feeling urge to answer?
Sigge
Oops...the formatting got messed up. Here are my estimates on the direct costs of a CCTG program.
Food $ 480 Flights $ 1,650 Housing $ 752 Utilities/Phone $ 200 Vaccinations $ 150 Misc $ 600 subtotal $ 3,832
35 percent overhead $ 1,341 TOTAL $ 5,173
I'm really not sure how one should cost the "educational costs" of a CCTG program since it appears that the majority of the education is the TG's experiential education, i.e., fund-raising, housekeeping, that doesn't cost the TG anything and is essential for the continued functioning of the place.
Regards......Lars
I am not arguing that TG programs are not less expensive but that their costs are so low (after all a point of pride is getting things for free) that there is plenty of money account for.
For example, take a CCTG program of 14 months. 6 months of prep in Yreka, CA, 6 months in Africa and 2 months back in Yreka. The cost of the program is $3,300 and participants are expect to raise an additional $7000 for a total of $10,300. This money covers food, accomindations, any "educational" materials, flights to Africa, vaccinations. According to the CCTG website, Humana covers the expenses in Africa....so let's do the math.
Food = $2 per day * 30 days * 8 months Flight = $1650 (what I could find for a flight from SFO to Harare, Zimbabwee - I'm sure there are cheaper ways to go) Housing = I found a listing for a two bedroom appartment in Yreka for $376 to judge what "market rate" is. Assume 2 people per room = $94 per month * 8 months = $752 Utilities/Phone = $25 per month * 8 months = 200 Vaccinations = I don't really know, how about $150 Misc. = 600
This comes out to a grand total of $3832 of direct costs. Assume 35 percent overhead (to cover admin and outreach) and you still only get about $5200 or about half of what people pay and fundraise
Of course these figures are not the actual cost structure of CCTG but I bet they are close. You can fiddle around a bit but still have a lot left.
Lars
The fact of the matter is that price is really beyond the point here. The difference between Tvind and most other Development charities is that Tvind has a sect-like structure complete with an old guru at the top sippin' cocktails on his penthouse terrace and laughing his ass over both all the idealisitc young volunteers and all the old wanna-be "hippie" teachers that unknowingly or not fund his lavish lifestyle.
Yours,
*<:-)
Hmm, looks like you guys learned your maths at the Moscow School of Economics back in "the day"...
Hello
I like that we are talking mathematics here. Food, housing, transport, airtravel etc costs some money for sure. If you look upon what it costs to do other volunteer programs is it very cheap to do it at one of the Travelling Folk High schools. Check out volunteer programs by yourseelves. You have for ex. Cross cultural solutions that charges a considerable bigger amount for much shorter programs
hmmm...but if paid the entire amount in cash you would miss out (gasp) on the "learning experience" of fundraising......
a couple more comments on the math here, while it may cost 300 pounds for a flat and 200 pounds for food on your own these are not the costs that accrue to a TG school. I've always heard the figure of $2 bucks a day for food and who knows how much mortage the TG is paying itself for the housing....during fundraising its free. So the "cost" to Tvind is hardly 4000 pounds unless you include the salaries of the TG members who are busy recruiting the next crop of volunteers.....
too many lies and myths around here, most people just exagerate to feel important or make themself seem 'cool'
Here are some basic truths about costs/fundraising etc
Usually you pay 2,500 pounds or abou $3,500 to join a school in Denmark for 14 months. However, 75% of people do not pay this they do netup whcih involves doing a very very easy job for a month or 2 within the organisation , or they get a scholarship and start right away paying nothing.
Now that leaves the fundraising whcih is about 3,000 pounds,. Instead of paying that amount which most young people could never afford you can fundraise your money, (If you payd it in cash you would not have to fundraise). No matter how bad people say it is, it is a fact it has to be done, the schools needs this 3,000 for your participation in the program. You know this beofre you join.
Now comes the good bit.why complain or moan, saying you are being ripped off.?? Think about it. 14 months is a long time, 8 months in Denmark 6 months africa. If you live in own flat or house back home how much is the rent?? in Uk will cost me at least 300 a month for 1 bedroom flat. For food 200 a month. That is 500 a month x 8 (8 months Denmark) = 4,000 pounds. Then you still have the housing in Africa (cheaper i know but still...) and also you are given a salary more than the locals earn $200 a month or so for your food and essential items.
The total cost of all this to tvind is around 5,000 pounds. You are fundraising about 3,500 (most people dont reach their target or do netup type jobs which over pay and are very generous for the fundraising) On average then each person i would say fundraises 1,000 pounds on the street and makes up rest of money doing easy jobs within the organisation.
so that is 4,000 extra tvind is spending on each person to do this course just in housing/food costs. That is not taking into account the costs of the education/special events like the new year concert/cost of having teahers helping/listening to your whining all the time.
In conclusion, if you look at those basic facts , you will see the truth. and not make up lies about how tvind is taking your money
DL ex volunteer Denmark
The Appeals Court of Western Denmark just ordered DRH-P Sejrens Vej to pay back 4.9 million DKR it received as education funding. Turns out the students spent too much time fundraising and to little hitting the books! Similar cases against the other DRH's likely.
An old Grandfather said to his grandson, who came to him with anger at a friend who had done him an injustice... "Let me tell you a story. I too, at times, have felt great hate for those who have taken so much, with no sorrow for what they do. But hate wears you down, and does not hurt your enemy. It's like taking poison and wishing your enemy would die. I have struggled with these feelings many times. It is as if there are two wolves inside me. One is good and does no harm. He lives in harmony with all around him and does not take offense when no offense was intended. He will only fight when it is right to do so, and in the right way. But...the other wolf... ah! The littlest thing will send him into a fit of temper. He fights everyone, all of the time, for no reason. He cannot think, because his anger and hate are so great. It is helpless anger, for his anger will change nothing. Sometimes it is hard to live with these two wolves inside me, for both of them try to dominate my spirit." The boy looked intently into his Grandfather's eyes and asked, "Which one wins, Grandfather?" The Grandfather smiled and quietly said, "The one I feed." -- A Native American tale told many times around the Sacred Fire
Annsofi, I was never a member of the TG, but I did teach for a short time at a Tvind run school in the US... the responses you got are not at all unusual... After telling one of my very best friends the story of my experiences, his response was: "Well, if what you say is true..." I felt like my believability was forever diminished in his eyes...( and with his comment, my trust in that friendship was forever diminished in my eyes...)... My youngest sister has (upon being shown Tvindalert and having read through much of it), confessed to me that when I got home from Ake Pecha, she remembers thinking that I'd lost it... that I'd gone crazy. I learned to be secretive about my having worked at Ake Pecha, especially during job interviews, because how could I admit that I had worked with children in such a strange and neglectful place.
But the story is so crazy and unbelievable, isn't it? The Tvindalert site has helped me so much to regain a sense that I really did see what I thought I saw, that I really did go through what I went through, and that what my fellow American teacher pieced together about what appeared to be happening, WAS happening... We weren't crazy!!!
It is so sad that we all went through this... most people who get involved in Tvind programming are very well intentioned going into it.. yet many have been really hurt by their involvement with Tvind.
I am glad there is this forum for sharing experiences and ideas... it sounds like it's been as helpful for you as it's been for me... Marianna
For many years I was alone with my toughts, and when I told people about my experienses as a teacher at Tvind, the reaction was mistrust: "noo,could it be that bad..aren`t you overreacting?!". Well, I wasn`t, and now after the last times "bad" publicity and after hours of reading these sites I know I`m not alone either. Unfortunately. Annsofi
I have been involved in several Danida projekts, and the salaries payed for tvind members involvement in tvind projects suprise me. Only the most experienced and well educated in the projects I have been involved in, can match the saleries that the Tvind organisation pays its project-leaders. I wounder why somebody would pay someone with only pour competances that kind of money. Wouldn't they be better spend in humanitarien projekts right away, insted of being transferred to other foundations ore companies, in such a suspicious way?
Richard Arnaud (France)
"Whould you get angry if someone start to demand where you spend your private money?"
I certainly would, particularly if my co-workers demanded that I put my money into some shit like Flleseje...
Yes, but if this is even in part from clothes donations this is essentially *other people's* money.
And:
* what 'fund'? * what exactly is the money used for? * how accountable is it? * do people giving old clothes in Europe realise their gift is not supporting a project leader, but instead is going to Tvind? * if they did, would they still give? * why isn't any of this stated publicly and on their boxes?
yes, it is so that TG members wages go to the fund, but this is their own choice. Tell me when you get your salary arne't you free to choose what to do with it? Whould you get angry if someone start to demand where you spend your private money?
On the question of how much money Tvind 'makes' from its projects, I don't think anyone has mentioned the financing of Teachers Group Project leaders. As I understand it (any way, this is what I have been told) the project leaders are paid quite high salaries in line with the kind of sums qualified aid workers abroad usually get - this is perfectly normal. These salaries are financed from the sale of old clothes in Europe and eastern Europe. Again, so far, quite normal.
Where DAPP and co differ from the usual NGO world is that the project leaders never actually see the money. Because of the 'common time, common economy' principle, which is all highly principled and very laudable, they have opetd to be paid pocket money and expenses rather than a salary. If the salaries are paid out as project costs on paper, in practice the money either stays with or is returned to one of the Tvind financial funds somewhere. With, what is it?, say 250 project leaders each earning say $60,000 that is a lot of money with big accountability and tax implications.
This could also have something to do with the persistent reports of suitcases stuffed with money being carried by TG members by plane from southern Africa to Veije, as claimed in the Danish TV documentary this year. There certainly seems to be something to explain here.
Any comments?
heh, well I have to agree that you are right on that one.
But even so, it does show that tvind is not making 'mega profit' from these volunteer programs.
They are probably breaking even, which is what they should officially be doing
Actually opportunity cost is the cost of doing one thing as opposed to doing another. So the correct use of this would be the amount of money you could earn during the eight months of working with Tvind in the US minus the costs of supporting yourself in the US and Africa for 14 months which you estimate as $7000.
Assume that you have a 40 per week job that pays $7/hr (fairly low pay by the way). In eight months you would earn 40 * 7 * 34.5 weeks = $9,660 so the opportunity cost of doing a CCTG program versus going on your own is $1660.
But then again you don't get the "educational experience" of fundraising... :)
Lars
i dont think so even in denmark you can make the cv look good, you just dont mention tvinds name.
only Denmark and 50/50% sweeden would recognise tvind,humana, any other country mainly uk/france/germany etc would not know or care usa only might recognise planet aid, I have read Harvard reports and lecture notes, praising humana as 1 ngo in a list of many,
ON a cv the name is fine. if your worried dont say tvind, which you would not be working for anway, you would have been working for adpp or dapp which have quite good names around the world,
In denmark or sweeden you worked for adpp , none in dnemark knows who that is, not the recruiting office anyway, or you were simply working in africa for a foreign orgnaisation in partnership with major ngo's
"Doing this program also looks very good on your cv for future jobs you might apply for"
Not if any of those future jobs happen to be in Northern Europe!!!
This is what your cv might look like to an employer in say, Denmark:
1993-1997 Smallville High (honor roll, debating society, football team) 1997-2001 Metro College (dean's list, peer counseling) 2001-2004 Cult Membership (hmm...) 2004-...
Another point. (see also post below this counter to lars)
To those saying that the figures quoted as costing the participant if he were to live himself for those 14 months , not being met by tvind since their costs are so much lower.
Basically that is not the point. I would guess some of you know what opportunity cost is? It means that it does not matter what the costs to tvind are (or how cheaply they can put you through the program).
what matters is the cost to each individual if he were not doing this program. The cost of living yourself own flat (very low quality sub standard) 300 a month. Sub standard food, 200 a month. 500 a month x 8 is 4,000 , + the cost of 6 months you would be in africa food/accomodation minus the glorius sunshine people/women. 2,000 = total 6,000 (not including if u were to take own flight to africa then+1,000 =7,000) That is the cost to live by yourself 8 months and then go to africa for 6 months.
Now the cost of working with tvind for a year. If you are in the 75% who does not pay initial fee to join program then your costs so far for 8 months are 0. you are also in the 75% that sucks at street fundraising and does some invented job, your financial cost for those 5 or 6 weeks easy work?? 0
The real cost then to joining the program for most participants could be noted as 0, and the opportunity cost of not joining as 7,000
(please see post below this for other important general info)
DL ex volunteer dvldvl@hotmail.com
To Lars and others
You are saying then that financially you are getting half of what you pay. Now that is in theory (according to your figures) if people are actually meeting those targets. Have you been a volunteer with this organisation??
I have. no one makes these targets maybe one person a year out of 900. 75% dont pay the initial program costs (more pay in usa programs very little pay the initial fee in denmark)
And for fundraising, again most people are lucky if they make 25% of the target on the street. Most of the time they suck so bad the school has to make other plans and effectivley invent jobs which do not exisit so the people can finish their fundraising. they pay the students fees from these 'invented jobs' thus incuring more financial loss. Typical job might be painting a few walls in one of the schools which dont need painting. Do this for a few weeks and you have earned the easiest $3,000 you will in your entire life.
So all in all, I would say, if you average it out, tvind makes no profit form these schools, (a loss on most students) the volunteers themselves do get a useful learning experience and they dont not have to be degree educated or whatever to get it .
Alternative gap year programs for volunteering/teaching abroad can cost up to $3000 for only 12 weeks. (how much profit do these organisations make form it???)
Doing this program also looks very good on your cv for future jobs you might apply for.I know very many people form my time as a volunteer who have gone on to reach the highest tier in their chosen industry. And their first break came because of this 1 year gap year with Humana. When your 23 just finished your degree and then gone to Africa for a year and helped manage a project or been responsible for educating 2,000 aids victims that makes for some good employment prospects.
DL
It would be interesting to know the cost per squarmeter the schools pay rent to the owners of their schoolbuildings. How big percentage from the schools' budget goes to paying rent? And further, who are the owners of the schoolbuildings? A fund, a company...owned by whom? I a w:Who takes care of that money? Any headmaster from any Tvind-school feeling urge to answer?
Sigge
Oops...the formatting got messed up. Here are my estimates on the direct costs of a CCTG program.
Food $ 480 Flights $ 1,650 Housing $ 752 Utilities/Phone $ 200 Vaccinations $ 150 Misc $ 600 subtotal $ 3,832
35 percent overhead $ 1,341 TOTAL $ 5,173
I'm really not sure how one should cost the "educational costs" of a CCTG program since it appears that the majority of the education is the TG's experiential education, i.e., fund-raising, housekeeping, that doesn't cost the TG anything and is essential for the continued functioning of the place.
Regards......Lars
I am not arguing that TG programs are not less expensive but that their costs are so low (after all a point of pride is getting things for free) that there is plenty of money account for.
For example, take a CCTG program of 14 months. 6 months of prep in Yreka, CA, 6 months in Africa and 2 months back in Yreka. The cost of the program is $3,300 and participants are expect to raise an additional $7000 for a total of $10,300. This money covers food, accomindations, any "educational" materials, flights to Africa, vaccinations. According to the CCTG website, Humana covers the expenses in Africa....so let's do the math.
Food = $2 per day * 30 days * 8 months Flight = $1650 (what I could find for a flight from SFO to Harare, Zimbabwee - I'm sure there are cheaper ways to go) Housing = I found a listing for a two bedroom appartment in Yreka for $376 to judge what "market rate" is. Assume 2 people per room = $94 per month * 8 months = $752 Utilities/Phone = $25 per month * 8 months = 200 Vaccinations = I don't really know, how about $150 Misc. = 600
This comes out to a grand total of $3832 of direct costs. Assume 35 percent overhead (to cover admin and outreach) and you still only get about $5200 or about half of what people pay and fundraise
Of course these figures are not the actual cost structure of CCTG but I bet they are close. You can fiddle around a bit but still have a lot left.
Lars
The fact of the matter is that price is really beyond the point here. The difference between Tvind and most other Development charities is that Tvind has a sect-like structure complete with an old guru at the top sippin' cocktails on his penthouse terrace and laughing his ass over both all the idealisitc young volunteers and all the old wanna-be "hippie" teachers that unknowingly or not fund his lavish lifestyle.
Yours,
*<:-)
Hmm, looks like you guys learned your maths at the Moscow School of Economics back in "the day"...
Hello
I like that we are talking mathematics here. Food, housing, transport, airtravel etc costs some money for sure. If you look upon what it costs to do other volunteer programs is it very cheap to do it at one of the Travelling Folk High schools. Check out volunteer programs by yourseelves. You have for ex. Cross cultural solutions that charges a considerable bigger amount for much shorter programs
hmmm...but if paid the entire amount in cash you would miss out (gasp) on the "learning experience" of fundraising......
a couple more comments on the math here, while it may cost 300 pounds for a flat and 200 pounds for food on your own these are not the costs that accrue to a TG school. I've always heard the figure of $2 bucks a day for food and who knows how much mortage the TG is paying itself for the housing....during fundraising its free. So the "cost" to Tvind is hardly 4000 pounds unless you include the salaries of the TG members who are busy recruiting the next crop of volunteers.....
too many lies and myths around here, most people just exagerate to feel important or make themself seem 'cool'
Here are some basic truths about costs/fundraising etc
Usually you pay 2,500 pounds or abou $3,500 to join a school in Denmark for 14 months. However, 75% of people do not pay this they do netup whcih involves doing a very very easy job for a month or 2 within the organisation , or they get a scholarship and start right away paying nothing.
Now that leaves the fundraising whcih is about 3,000 pounds,. Instead of paying that amount which most young people could never afford you can fundraise your money, (If you payd it in cash you would not have to fundraise). No matter how bad people say it is, it is a fact it has to be done, the schools needs this 3,000 for your participation in the program. You know this beofre you join.
Now comes the good bit.why complain or moan, saying you are being ripped off.?? Think about it. 14 months is a long time, 8 months in Denmark 6 months africa. If you live in own flat or house back home how much is the rent?? in Uk will cost me at least 300 a month for 1 bedroom flat. For food 200 a month. That is 500 a month x 8 (8 months Denmark) = 4,000 pounds. Then you still have the housing in Africa (cheaper i know but still...) and also you are given a salary more than the locals earn $200 a month or so for your food and essential items.
The total cost of all this to tvind is around 5,000 pounds. You are fundraising about 3,500 (most people dont reach their target or do netup type jobs which over pay and are very generous for the fundraising) On average then each person i would say fundraises 1,000 pounds on the street and makes up rest of money doing easy jobs within the organisation.
so that is 4,000 extra tvind is spending on each person to do this course just in housing/food costs. That is not taking into account the costs of the education/special events like the new year concert/cost of having teahers helping/listening to your whining all the time.
In conclusion, if you look at those basic facts , you will see the truth. and not make up lies about how tvind is taking your money
DL ex volunteer Denmark
The Appeals Court of Western Denmark just ordered DRH-P Sejrens Vej to pay back 4.9 million DKR it received as education funding. Turns out the students spent too much time fundraising and to little hitting the books! Similar cases against the other DRH's likely.
But the story is so crazy and unbelievable, isn't it? The Tvindalert site has helped me so much to regain a sense that I really did see what I thought I saw, that I really did go through what I went through, and that what my fellow American teacher pieced together about what appeared to be happening, WAS happening... We weren't crazy!!!
It is so sad that we all went through this... most people who get involved in Tvind programming are very well intentioned going into it.. yet many have been really hurt by their involvement with Tvind.
I am glad there is this forum for sharing experiences and ideas... it sounds like it's been as helpful for you as it's been for me... Marianna
For many years I was alone with my toughts, and when I told people about my experienses as a teacher at Tvind, the reaction was mistrust: "noo,could it be that bad..aren`t you overreacting?!". Well, I wasn`t, and now after the last times "bad" publicity and after hours of reading these sites I know I`m not alone either. Unfortunately. Annsofi
I have been involved in several Danida projekts, and the salaries payed for tvind members involvement in tvind projects suprise me. Only the most experienced and well educated in the projects I have been involved in, can match the saleries that the Tvind organisation pays its project-leaders. I wounder why somebody would pay someone with only pour competances that kind of money. Wouldn't they be better spend in humanitarien projekts right away, insted of being transferred to other foundations ore companies, in such a suspicious way?
Richard Arnaud (France)
"Whould you get angry if someone start to demand where you spend your private money?"
I certainly would, particularly if my co-workers demanded that I put my money into some shit like Flleseje...
Yes, but if this is even in part from clothes donations this is essentially *other people's* money.
And:
* what 'fund'? * what exactly is the money used for? * how accountable is it? * do people giving old clothes in Europe realise their gift is not supporting a project leader, but instead is going to Tvind? * if they did, would they still give? * why isn't any of this stated publicly and on their boxes?
yes, it is so that TG members wages go to the fund, but this is their own choice. Tell me when you get your salary arne't you free to choose what to do with it? Whould you get angry if someone start to demand where you spend your private money?
On the question of how much money Tvind 'makes' from its projects, I don't think anyone has mentioned the financing of Teachers Group Project leaders. As I understand it (any way, this is what I have been told) the project leaders are paid quite high salaries in line with the kind of sums qualified aid workers abroad usually get - this is perfectly normal. These salaries are financed from the sale of old clothes in Europe and eastern Europe. Again, so far, quite normal.
Where DAPP and co differ from the usual NGO world is that the project leaders never actually see the money. Because of the 'common time, common economy' principle, which is all highly principled and very laudable, they have opetd to be paid pocket money and expenses rather than a salary. If the salaries are paid out as project costs on paper, in practice the money either stays with or is returned to one of the Tvind financial funds somewhere. With, what is it?, say 250 project leaders each earning say $60,000 that is a lot of money with big accountability and tax implications.
This could also have something to do with the persistent reports of suitcases stuffed with money being carried by TG members by plane from southern Africa to Veije, as claimed in the Danish TV documentary this year. There certainly seems to be something to explain here.
Any comments?
heh, well I have to agree that you are right on that one.
But even so, it does show that tvind is not making 'mega profit' from these volunteer programs.
They are probably breaking even, which is what they should officially be doing
Actually opportunity cost is the cost of doing one thing as opposed to doing another. So the correct use of this would be the amount of money you could earn during the eight months of working with Tvind in the US minus the costs of supporting yourself in the US and Africa for 14 months which you estimate as $7000.
Assume that you have a 40 per week job that pays $7/hr (fairly low pay by the way). In eight months you would earn 40 * 7 * 34.5 weeks = $9,660 so the opportunity cost of doing a CCTG program versus going on your own is $1660.
But then again you don't get the "educational experience" of fundraising... :)
Lars
i dont think so even in denmark you can make the cv look good, you just dont mention tvinds name.
only Denmark and 50/50% sweeden would recognise tvind,humana, any other country mainly uk/france/germany etc would not know or care usa only might recognise planet aid, I have read Harvard reports and lecture notes, praising humana as 1 ngo in a list of many,
ON a cv the name is fine. if your worried dont say tvind, which you would not be working for anway, you would have been working for adpp or dapp which have quite good names around the world,
In denmark or sweeden you worked for adpp , none in dnemark knows who that is, not the recruiting office anyway, or you were simply working in africa for a foreign orgnaisation in partnership with major ngo's
"Doing this program also looks very good on your cv for future jobs you might apply for"
Not if any of those future jobs happen to be in Northern Europe!!!
This is what your cv might look like to an employer in say, Denmark:
1993-1997 Smallville High (honor roll, debating society, football team) 1997-2001 Metro College (dean's list, peer counseling) 2001-2004 Cult Membership (hmm...) 2004-...
Another point. (see also post below this counter to lars)
To those saying that the figures quoted as costing the participant if he were to live himself for those 14 months , not being met by tvind since their costs are so much lower.
Basically that is not the point. I would guess some of you know what opportunity cost is? It means that it does not matter what the costs to tvind are (or how cheaply they can put you through the program).
what matters is the cost to each individual if he were not doing this program. The cost of living yourself own flat (very low quality sub standard) 300 a month. Sub standard food, 200 a month. 500 a month x 8 is 4,000 , + the cost of 6 months you would be in africa food/accomodation minus the glorius sunshine people/women. 2,000 = total 6,000 (not including if u were to take own flight to africa then+1,000 =7,000) That is the cost to live by yourself 8 months and then go to africa for 6 months.
Now the cost of working with tvind for a year. If you are in the 75% who does not pay initial fee to join program then your costs so far for 8 months are 0. you are also in the 75% that sucks at street fundraising and does some invented job, your financial cost for those 5 or 6 weeks easy work?? 0
The real cost then to joining the program for most participants could be noted as 0, and the opportunity cost of not joining as 7,000
(please see post below this for other important general info)
DL ex volunteer dvldvl@hotmail.com
To Lars and others
You are saying then that financially you are getting half of what you pay. Now that is in theory (according to your figures) if people are actually meeting those targets. Have you been a volunteer with this organisation??
I have. no one makes these targets maybe one person a year out of 900. 75% dont pay the initial program costs (more pay in usa programs very little pay the initial fee in denmark)
And for fundraising, again most people are lucky if they make 25% of the target on the street. Most of the time they suck so bad the school has to make other plans and effectivley invent jobs which do not exisit so the people can finish their fundraising. they pay the students fees from these 'invented jobs' thus incuring more financial loss. Typical job might be painting a few walls in one of the schools which dont need painting. Do this for a few weeks and you have earned the easiest $3,000 you will in your entire life.
So all in all, I would say, if you average it out, tvind makes no profit form these schools, (a loss on most students) the volunteers themselves do get a useful learning experience and they dont not have to be degree educated or whatever to get it .
Alternative gap year programs for volunteering/teaching abroad can cost up to $3000 for only 12 weeks. (how much profit do these organisations make form it???)
Doing this program also looks very good on your cv for future jobs you might apply for.I know very many people form my time as a volunteer who have gone on to reach the highest tier in their chosen industry. And their first break came because of this 1 year gap year with Humana. When your 23 just finished your degree and then gone to Africa for a year and helped manage a project or been responsible for educating 2,000 aids victims that makes for some good employment prospects.
DL
It would be interesting to know the cost per squarmeter the schools pay rent to the owners of their schoolbuildings. How big percentage from the schools' budget goes to paying rent? And further, who are the owners of the schoolbuildings? A fund, a company...owned by whom? I a w:Who takes care of that money? Any headmaster from any Tvind-school feeling urge to answer?
Sigge
Oops...the formatting got messed up. Here are my estimates on the direct costs of a CCTG program.
Food $ 480 Flights $ 1,650 Housing $ 752 Utilities/Phone $ 200 Vaccinations $ 150 Misc $ 600 subtotal $ 3,832
35 percent overhead $ 1,341 TOTAL $ 5,173
I'm really not sure how one should cost the "educational costs" of a CCTG program since it appears that the majority of the education is the TG's experiential education, i.e., fund-raising, housekeeping, that doesn't cost the TG anything and is essential for the continued functioning of the place.
Regards......Lars
I am not arguing that TG programs are not less expensive but that their costs are so low (after all a point of pride is getting things for free) that there is plenty of money account for.
For example, take a CCTG program of 14 months. 6 months of prep in Yreka, CA, 6 months in Africa and 2 months back in Yreka. The cost of the program is $3,300 and participants are expect to raise an additional $7000 for a total of $10,300. This money covers food, accomindations, any "educational" materials, flights to Africa, vaccinations. According to the CCTG website, Humana covers the expenses in Africa....so let's do the math.
Food = $2 per day * 30 days * 8 months Flight = $1650 (what I could find for a flight from SFO to Harare, Zimbabwee - I'm sure there are cheaper ways to go) Housing = I found a listing for a two bedroom appartment in Yreka for $376 to judge what "market rate" is. Assume 2 people per room = $94 per month * 8 months = $752 Utilities/Phone = $25 per month * 8 months = 200 Vaccinations = I don't really know, how about $150 Misc. = 600
This comes out to a grand total of $3832 of direct costs. Assume 35 percent overhead (to cover admin and outreach) and you still only get about $5200 or about half of what people pay and fundraise
Of course these figures are not the actual cost structure of CCTG but I bet they are close. You can fiddle around a bit but still have a lot left.
Lars
The fact of the matter is that price is really beyond the point here. The difference between Tvind and most other Development charities is that Tvind has a sect-like structure complete with an old guru at the top sippin' cocktails on his penthouse terrace and laughing his ass over both all the idealisitc young volunteers and all the old wanna-be "hippie" teachers that unknowingly or not fund his lavish lifestyle.
Yours,
*<:-)
Hmm, looks like you guys learned your maths at the Moscow School of Economics back in "the day"...
Hello
I like that we are talking mathematics here. Food, housing, transport, airtravel etc costs some money for sure. If you look upon what it costs to do other volunteer programs is it very cheap to do it at one of the Travelling Folk High schools. Check out volunteer programs by yourseelves. You have for ex. Cross cultural solutions that charges a considerable bigger amount for much shorter programs
hmmm...but if paid the entire amount in cash you would miss out (gasp) on the "learning experience" of fundraising......
a couple more comments on the math here, while it may cost 300 pounds for a flat and 200 pounds for food on your own these are not the costs that accrue to a TG school. I've always heard the figure of $2 bucks a day for food and who knows how much mortage the TG is paying itself for the housing....during fundraising its free. So the "cost" to Tvind is hardly 4000 pounds unless you include the salaries of the TG members who are busy recruiting the next crop of volunteers.....
too many lies and myths around here, most people just exagerate to feel important or make themself seem 'cool'
Here are some basic truths about costs/fundraising etc
Usually you pay 2,500 pounds or abou $3,500 to join a school in Denmark for 14 months. However, 75% of people do not pay this they do netup whcih involves doing a very very easy job for a month or 2 within the organisation , or they get a scholarship and start right away paying nothing.
Now that leaves the fundraising whcih is about 3,000 pounds,. Instead of paying that amount which most young people could never afford you can fundraise your money, (If you payd it in cash you would not have to fundraise). No matter how bad people say it is, it is a fact it has to be done, the schools needs this 3,000 for your participation in the program. You know this beofre you join.
Now comes the good bit.why complain or moan, saying you are being ripped off.?? Think about it. 14 months is a long time, 8 months in Denmark 6 months africa. If you live in own flat or house back home how much is the rent?? in Uk will cost me at least 300 a month for 1 bedroom flat. For food 200 a month. That is 500 a month x 8 (8 months Denmark) = 4,000 pounds. Then you still have the housing in Africa (cheaper i know but still...) and also you are given a salary more than the locals earn $200 a month or so for your food and essential items.
The total cost of all this to tvind is around 5,000 pounds. You are fundraising about 3,500 (most people dont reach their target or do netup type jobs which over pay and are very generous for the fundraising) On average then each person i would say fundraises 1,000 pounds on the street and makes up rest of money doing easy jobs within the organisation.
so that is 4,000 extra tvind is spending on each person to do this course just in housing/food costs. That is not taking into account the costs of the education/special events like the new year concert/cost of having teahers helping/listening to your whining all the time.
In conclusion, if you look at those basic facts , you will see the truth. and not make up lies about how tvind is taking your money
DL ex volunteer Denmark
The Appeals Court of Western Denmark just ordered DRH-P Sejrens Vej to pay back 4.9 million DKR it received as education funding. Turns out the students spent too much time fundraising and to little hitting the books! Similar cases against the other DRH's likely.
It is so sad that we all went through this... most people who get involved in Tvind programming are very well intentioned going into it.. yet many have been really hurt by their involvement with Tvind.
I am glad there is this forum for sharing experiences and ideas... it sounds like it's been as helpful for you as it's been for me... Marianna
For many years I was alone with my toughts, and when I told people about my experienses as a teacher at Tvind, the reaction was mistrust: "noo,could it be that bad..aren`t you overreacting?!". Well, I wasn`t, and now after the last times "bad" publicity and after hours of reading these sites I know I`m not alone either. Unfortunately. Annsofi
I have been involved in several Danida projekts, and the salaries payed for tvind members involvement in tvind projects suprise me. Only the most experienced and well educated in the projects I have been involved in, can match the saleries that the Tvind organisation pays its project-leaders. I wounder why somebody would pay someone with only pour competances that kind of money. Wouldn't they be better spend in humanitarien projekts right away, insted of being transferred to other foundations ore companies, in such a suspicious way?
Richard Arnaud (France)
"Whould you get angry if someone start to demand where you spend your private money?"
I certainly would, particularly if my co-workers demanded that I put my money into some shit like Flleseje...
Yes, but if this is even in part from clothes donations this is essentially *other people's* money.
And:
* what 'fund'? * what exactly is the money used for? * how accountable is it? * do people giving old clothes in Europe realise their gift is not supporting a project leader, but instead is going to Tvind? * if they did, would they still give? * why isn't any of this stated publicly and on their boxes?
yes, it is so that TG members wages go to the fund, but this is their own choice. Tell me when you get your salary arne't you free to choose what to do with it? Whould you get angry if someone start to demand where you spend your private money?
On the question of how much money Tvind 'makes' from its projects, I don't think anyone has mentioned the financing of Teachers Group Project leaders. As I understand it (any way, this is what I have been told) the project leaders are paid quite high salaries in line with the kind of sums qualified aid workers abroad usually get - this is perfectly normal. These salaries are financed from the sale of old clothes in Europe and eastern Europe. Again, so far, quite normal.
Where DAPP and co differ from the usual NGO world is that the project leaders never actually see the money. Because of the 'common time, common economy' principle, which is all highly principled and very laudable, they have opetd to be paid pocket money and expenses rather than a salary. If the salaries are paid out as project costs on paper, in practice the money either stays with or is returned to one of the Tvind financial funds somewhere. With, what is it?, say 250 project leaders each earning say $60,000 that is a lot of money with big accountability and tax implications.
This could also have something to do with the persistent reports of suitcases stuffed with money being carried by TG members by plane from southern Africa to Veije, as claimed in the Danish TV documentary this year. There certainly seems to be something to explain here.
Any comments?
heh, well I have to agree that you are right on that one.
But even so, it does show that tvind is not making 'mega profit' from these volunteer programs.
They are probably breaking even, which is what they should officially be doing
Actually opportunity cost is the cost of doing one thing as opposed to doing another. So the correct use of this would be the amount of money you could earn during the eight months of working with Tvind in the US minus the costs of supporting yourself in the US and Africa for 14 months which you estimate as $7000.
Assume that you have a 40 per week job that pays $7/hr (fairly low pay by the way). In eight months you would earn 40 * 7 * 34.5 weeks = $9,660 so the opportunity cost of doing a CCTG program versus going on your own is $1660.
But then again you don't get the "educational experience" of fundraising... :)
Lars
i dont think so even in denmark you can make the cv look good, you just dont mention tvinds name.
only Denmark and 50/50% sweeden would recognise tvind,humana, any other country mainly uk/france/germany etc would not know or care usa only might recognise planet aid, I have read Harvard reports and lecture notes, praising humana as 1 ngo in a list of many,
ON a cv the name is fine. if your worried dont say tvind, which you would not be working for anway, you would have been working for adpp or dapp which have quite good names around the world,
In denmark or sweeden you worked for adpp , none in dnemark knows who that is, not the recruiting office anyway, or you were simply working in africa for a foreign orgnaisation in partnership with major ngo's
"Doing this program also looks very good on your cv for future jobs you might apply for"
Not if any of those future jobs happen to be in Northern Europe!!!
This is what your cv might look like to an employer in say, Denmark:
1993-1997 Smallville High (honor roll, debating society, football team) 1997-2001 Metro College (dean's list, peer counseling) 2001-2004 Cult Membership (hmm...) 2004-...
Another point. (see also post below this counter to lars)
To those saying that the figures quoted as costing the participant if he were to live himself for those 14 months , not being met by tvind since their costs are so much lower.
Basically that is not the point. I would guess some of you know what opportunity cost is? It means that it does not matter what the costs to tvind are (or how cheaply they can put you through the program).
what matters is the cost to each individual if he were not doing this program. The cost of living yourself own flat (very low quality sub standard) 300 a month. Sub standard food, 200 a month. 500 a month x 8 is 4,000 , + the cost of 6 months you would be in africa food/accomodation minus the glorius sunshine people/women. 2,000 = total 6,000 (not including if u were to take own flight to africa then+1,000 =7,000) That is the cost to live by yourself 8 months and then go to africa for 6 months.
Now the cost of working with tvind for a year. If you are in the 75% who does not pay initial fee to join program then your costs so far for 8 months are 0. you are also in the 75% that sucks at street fundraising and does some invented job, your financial cost for those 5 or 6 weeks easy work?? 0
The real cost then to joining the program for most participants could be noted as 0, and the opportunity cost of not joining as 7,000
(please see post below this for other important general info)
DL ex volunteer dvldvl@hotmail.com
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