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It is great to see that some twenty former TG members are now willing to testify for the crown in the upcoming lawsuits! I guess Tvind's intimidation of Hans la Cour had the opposite effect as originally intended!

 

To the last poster,

Yes, we all know that you don't get luxuries during a Tvind trip...that's not really what Nick's complaint is about anyway. Its about not getting medical attention and lack care about security and the generally lack of organization and experience that ADPP programs have.

 

To the last poster,

Yes, we all know that you don't get luxuries during a Tvind trip...that's not really what Nick's complaint is about anyway. Its about not getting medical attention and lack care about security and the generally lack of organization and experience that ADPP programs have.

 

Hej,

I was at Lindersvold in 1999 and went off to Angola (Benguela)later that year. I read with interest alot of the comments and articles on this site. I agree with some of them but others seem to be poorly informed and sensationalized. I too encountered problems with TG members both in Denmark and Angola but found that in most cases they were open to persuasion and not simple one dimensional creatures whose every thought and emotion was controlled by the great Amdi. For anyone having doubts about going on a solidarity course or whatever they call it now I'd advise them to go ahead and do it. You'll meet like minded people from all over the world and yeah it can be tough going with fundraising and all but asides from that its great craic. You just have to be well prepared beforehand and realise that your not going to have all the luxuries and stuff that you had at home. I was not aware of being 'brainwashed' at any stage and at the end of it all I was asked if I'd like to join the the famed 'Teacher's Group' I asked loads of questions about it to several members and they were all open and honest with me even explaining finances and the like. Nevertheless I declined. If you join up for a course you will most likely have a very good time and the time I had in Angola was the best experience of my life. Also some of that stuff written by the Canadian bloke (Nick I think) who went to Benguela (and stayed in the Cavaco Valley the supposed malaria hotspot. Absolute bollocks by the way) and got very litttle medical attention from project leaders such as Neil Clark and the others, well I was there and at any stage of illness we were brought by our project leaders to the doctors for a malaria test and all medication was bought for us. One member of our team actually got sick in the middle of the countryside during a field trip and was brought back to Benguela immediately and put into the private hospital at Benguela were he stayed overnight, all at ADPP's cost. Mind you I do agree that Jeanette Rasmussen did seem a bit of the wall. I don't know if she is stil there now. It's probably best if she ain't but it shouldn't put people off going, you can bad people who are useless at their jobs in every walk of life. A few bad stories about individuals shouldn't put you off. The majority of teacher's group people I talked to were pretty nice reasonable people and if I was you I'd give one of the courses a chance before you simply dismiss it because of the content of some of the articles in this site.

Hi All

Happy new Year everyone, seems I got archived while I was on holiday...

Question to the poster 7 down looking for Ex Volunteers late 80 early 90s. There weren't so many around at that time as I remember it, it was still a fairly new idea to bring in volunteers to work at DIE, Small schools and so forth.

NB what's with all the nameless posts...?

Cheers

Chris Dec 2nd 2002

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Gldelig Jul og Godt Nytr!

Right on Marianna!!! :)

Merry Christmas Everybody

 

 

 

 

To the last poster: This is exactly what I found in Virginia in the 1980's -- though it sounds like our case was a more extreme. The kids with the biggest problems suffered the most, but they all had pretty big problems. In our case, there were very few "strong" students (educationally) who would have even had the means to grasp the kind of political drivel our TG teachers were trying to convey to them -- The kids who had been placed at the school by the State -- teenagers -- barely knew the alphabet, and knew enough about the world to say what town they'd come from and what town they were living in right then, that's about it. So, of course, there were very few kids in any kind of favor with the TG. Instead, the "strong" students (physically) "ran" the weaker students -- the boys (20 in number) "ran" the girls (5 or 6 in number) and the older (stronger) kids disdainfully ignored their TG section masters (who were at a complete loss as to how to make this kind of disorganized kid fall into line with their teaching philosophies). There was a pile of complaints including rape, assault, leaving children behind on trips, children breaking, entering and stealing from stores, being found off school property drunk and disorderly, stealing neighbor's vehicles, killing a neighbor's cat, seting fire to a neighbor's property..in essence the kids were left to run wild... clear indications that the TG leaders were not adequately trained to bring things into some kind of control... Yet when their license to operate was rescinded, they put on this great act of astonishment --"like a bolt out of a clear blue sky" was how the director put it...AND THEN, THEY APPLIED FOR ANOTHER LICENSE... maintaining that there was NOTHING WRONG... Another indication (there were many more) that they had no real caring for the kids, but were driven to keep the place going for the money. Do you think, nowadays, if Tvind was offered another opportunity to run a school like this, that they would turn it down? I wouldn't count on it.

In Virginia, Tvind took advantage of the State's desperation for adequate housing and support for emotionally disturbed young people (and "speculated" that they wouldn't be found out by the State). That took a couple of years out of the lives of the kids, who foundered there. All the while the TG piously claimed that they were helping make those kids better. In fact they were putting them at further risk. It WAS disgusting.

Several weeks ago on this message board, there was a posting from a TG member extolling the sense of purpose, high responsibilities, and wonderful privilege of being a teacher. In the context of normal, mainstream teaching responsiblities, it was a lyrically written piece (if naive and idealistic). In the context of its having been placed on this board by the TG, I say, "Oh, please, how cynical!" Marianna

I have been working at the Efterskole in Bogense, and has seen plenty, that confirms Sten Thomsens report, and consider the main problem on the schools, that the strong students are the ones who takes the time and strength from the teachers. The lees fortunate students are left to them selfes, and there is not taken prober care of their problems. I have also seen voulenters getting in over their heads, many times, and the only one to pay for their mistakes is the students. Considering that many of them need special attention, and many of the teachers trying to avoid this issues, i find the leaders of these schools not qulilfied to run the schools. This is backed up by the fact, that most (99pct.) outside teachers stays in the job for no more then max. 2 months. Imagen beging a student at these scholls, and having to a just to a new teacher several times in one school year. I belive that the schools is only exsiting because of the money. Every resonable teacher with knowledge of the social experiments will not allow them. Save the children, close the schools and thereby force the goverment to develop the curses that is needed to bring these young people on the right track: The tvind schools are speculating in the missing effort from the politicians to deal with young peoples problems in a prober way. That is discusting.

hey everyone Have anybody been to one of TG businesses. They write here about farms and a corporations they have. Are there any former TG member who has been working there? How does it look? Its not only about schools I guess they make hell a lot of money doing business.

The news of Amdi Pedersen's retreat on Fisher Island has caused visitors here to focus their comments on the issue of TG leadership. Important though this may be, perhaps there is scope to reconsider other aspects of Tvind school life. My own experience includes a two-year stint in the TG as well as time spent in other employment capacities, initially as a volunteer at an 'efterskole.' This experience was extremely valuable for me and as a young person (early twenties) I learned a great deal. We travelled with our students, organised major cultural events such as the Christmas Concerts and 'sommerteater' and particpated in school-wide sports competitions. At no time were our students in any danger or exposed to any credible threat. I knew a number of TG members who have since left the TG, including Steen Thomsen, who presented himself then as a very different person from the author of his scathingly critical report. He was a very caring and committed, gifted teacher who made enormous differences in the students in his care. But I don't see things in the same way he does in his report. It is a great shame, and an even greater waste of talent that he has been left so embittered. I would welcome the opportunity to chat with him. Yes, there were many questions and issues which I raised before and during my time in the TG. These included educational methods, common time and common distribution and economy, cultural assumptions, lifestyle questions, the whole range, but the debates that ensued were worthwhile and contributed to important change in the TG, initally at my school but later on at others. But this did not stop our often socially and economically disadvantaged students from making tremendous strides in their personal development, and attaining creditworthy school grades at the end of the year or upon school-leaving. I was always proud of what my students were able to achieve at our school, and a number of my former students are still in frequent contact with me and have visited me since. My point is that MANY of the efterskole and DIE volunteers (where are you now?) who I knew at the time (late 80s,early 90s) made important contributions to TG and school life. Persistent questioning and argument paid off, right up the chain of command. Many of the prominent persons and leaders of the TG have been 'demonised' by articles on this site and comments by guestbook contributors butI knew many of those named as people willing both to listen and to make often quite radical changes to their mindsets. A number of the claims and insinuations made by articles on this site are totaly wide of the mark and border on scandalous. They are often sensationalist and geared solely to provoke a negative reaction. They fail to tell the whole story, or even a fair proportion of it. The TG is an experiment in living. Yes, I realise we are talking about peoples' lives but experiments are by their very nature imperfect and subject to change. Perhaps I have laid myself open to criticism. Fair enough, but I would like to reorient this debate to focus on school life and the benefits gained by students at the schools in Denmark. I look forward to further comments.

Tomas' (or Amdi's) use of the Native American story is doubly offensive to me, because I know it is truly a Native American story; I remember reading it recently somewhere else. It's another case of Tvind's twisting of somebody else's story to suit its own needs as it sees fit, when it really doesn't make any sense in the context.

Funnily enough, the story about wolves and hate and love is a story presented to the Teachers' Group not so long ago by Mr. Mogens Amdi Petersen himself; - one of his ways, promoting himself as the wise old Godfather, whilst sitting in his tower (another of his "Fisher Islands"), contemplating, gazing at and embracing in his endless Love all them small, small, belligerent people under him, and considering all their small, small thoughts. So, Thomas, when did you sit in that meeting with your Great Master? And where? Now, please inform us properly. Or at least tell your students about who is behind you and above you - and them. Tell them when you went away for one of your meetings with Mr. Amdi Petersen and heard his babble. There is A LOT you will need to tell your students about yourself and "your" school. If you don't, then please stop all your softspoken shite on this site until the moment you really open up. Just tell frankly about the power structure of the Teachers' Group. That is what you owe your students. Start by telling them the true history of why you forward the "Native American story", as cited by you. Just to make a beginning. After that, get yourself out of the Tvind Cult, and get a life in freedom. (You will not need to lie anymore, not even to your students). By the way, the "Native American story" was sent to you, you mention. By whom? Name? And are you sure the story hasn't been produced by your Master himself? (He sometimes writes such stories to make himself mysterious and impressive.) I feel sure you also remember other texts by Amdi Petersen, Thomas? Remember all the times you have had even big problems finding head and tail in his texts as they are most often not at all as clear as the one presented by you on this site? I guess you realise readers on this site understand the wolf-hate-and-love-text as a way of once again pushing off any criticism? ONE THING: I DO NOT HATE YOU. I know how you are trapped as a TG member, but YOU are the one to break your chains, yourself. And just this advice-people will not carry on trusting you if you don't get to terms with your inner Self.

Well, let me finish my epistle from last night, (3rd down, below... somehow the ending got cut off).. remember, old father Christmas is jolly and fat... put the money in his kettle, NOT the pot of that grim, skinny Dane, Amid P...

"except it is almost impossible to change it if you are in TG, because you will have no means to it and that creates frustration among a lot of people."

BINGO!!!! DING! DING! DING!

You win a cookie:)

And why do you think that the TG has been set up this way? You are getting there my friend, keep on working on it, you will be out of Tvind in no time...

Hatred or love. The tale still makes sense for all of us

From the Native American story you've shared with us, (Tomas, I'm assuming?), I see that you interpret the actions of those of us who question Tvind's activities as "hatred." I find it interesting and curious that you leap to that interpretation... that it appears to you that we are acting out of hate, instead of ... common sense, or a general acknowledgement that there is a (BIG) problem we wish to see 'righted,' or even reasoned 'outrage' --with the explanations for the reasonableness of that outrage appearing right in front of us on this site, if not having been gleaned from our own experiences!!! I believe outrage can be channeled logically and deliberately , as most of the persons contributing stories to this website are expressing themselves logically, and factually. I see hatred as being blind, uncontrolled and unreasoning.

For myself, I don't identify my feelings toward Tvind, or any of it's programs, or Tvindies in general, or even Amdi, or the TG bigwigs, as hatred. As a former teacher, I guess I feel the same way about them, as I would a group of potentially unmanageable 'behavior disordered' students . I acknowledge the history and I appraise the realities of the current behavior. I am always careful to remember to acknowledge whatever the humanity and vulnerability and strengths and goodness of those subjects might be, as well as potential areas where those subjects could act in ways that would be hurtful to themselves or others, and I respond accordingly. Note that living in denial of any of the issues, OR living in hatred of the subjects, does nothing to assist either them in growing, or me in my ability to work beneficially with them. In fact, I would ask you to notice that this approach has nothing at all to do with hatred. It is simply a realistic, mature (and professional) response.

Well, enough of this, tonight... I wish you all (you, too, Tomas, really!)a Merry Christmas/God Jul, and a peaceful New Year. May all the work you do in service to your fellow human beings be bright, ethical, honestly offered, productive, culturally sensitive, and genuinely beneficial to its intended recipients, wherever they are... And remember... old father Christmas is jolly and fat,

"Whould you get angry if someone start to demand where you spend your private money?"

I certainly would, particularly if my co-workers demanded that I put my money into some shit like Flleseje...

NO you did not get it, no one will demand you to put your money into anywhere unless you want it yourself. I mean you get your wages and you have your own right without giving any explanations to spend your own earned money into whatever you want to. TG members take their wages and place them into their own created fund. Then they spend these money (their own money) to whatever they feel like. They build a school or start a project, buy an appartement in Miami etc. What I want to say is if I am in TG I would get insulted when someone start to demand from me to account on my own wages. Ok I am not talking here about funds they got from the state. Basically Tg is not about money it is about a life style and everyone is free to choose what life you want to leave, except it is almost impossible to change it if you are in TG, because you will have no means to it and that creates frustration among a lot of people.

Isn't it funny that whenever the Tvindies run out of arguments they start focusing on our oh so destructive "hate" toward them?

I for one am against Tvind out of love for my fellow man, my wish is that as few people as possible (pref. none!) get sucked in and exploited by them.

Merry X-mas to you all!

Chief Tomas speaks with forked tongue. Ugh.

Yes, much better to tell stories about wolves than address the questions and problems about the TG....btw, another good story apropos of the TG is Animal Farm....especially the poor horse who always tried to work harder and ended up going to the knacker.....Lars

A little story we got sent to us at CCTG that I would like to share with you all.

* The Two Wolves Within *

An old Grandfather said to his grandson, who came to him with anger at a friend who had done him an injustice... "Let me tell you a story. I too, at times, have felt great hate for those who have taken so much, with no sorrow for what they do. But hate wears you down, and does not hurt your enemy. It's like taking poison and wishing your enemy would die. I have struggled with these feelings many times. It is as if there are two wolves inside me. One is good and does no harm. He lives in harmony with all around him and does not take offense when no offense was intended. He will only fight when it is right to do so, and in the right way. But...the other wolf... ah! The littlest thing will send him into a fit of temper. He fights everyone, all of the time, for no reason. He cannot think, because his anger and hate are so great. It is helpless anger, for his anger will change nothing. Sometimes it is hard to live with these two wolves inside me, for both of them try to dominate my spirit." The boy looked intently into his Grandfather's eyes and asked, "Which one wins, Grandfather?" The Grandfather smiled and quietly said, "The one I feed." -- A Native American tale told many times around the Sacred Fire

Annsofi, I was never a member of the TG, but I did teach for a short time at a Tvind run school in the US... the responses you got are not at all unusual... After telling one of my very best friends the story of my experiences, his response was: "Well, if what you say is true..." I felt like my believability was forever diminished in his eyes...( and with his comment, my trust in that friendship was forever diminished in my eyes...)... My youngest sister has (upon being shown Tvindalert and having read through much of it), confessed to me that when I got home from Ake Pecha, she remembers thinking that I'd lost it... that I'd gone crazy. I learned to be secretive about my having worked at Ake Pecha, especially during job interviews, because how could I admit that I had worked with children in such a strange and neglectful place.

But the story is so crazy and unbelievable, isn't it? The Tvindalert site has helped me so much to regain a sense that I really did see what I thought I saw, that I really did go through what I went through, and that what my fellow American teacher pieced together about what appeared to be happening, WAS happening... We weren't crazy!!!

It is so sad that we all went through this... most people who get involved in Tvind programming are very well intentioned going into it.. yet many have been really hurt by their involvement with Tvind.

I am glad there is this forum for sharing experiences and ideas... it sounds like it's been as helpful for you as it's been for me... Marianna

For many years I was alone with my toughts, and when I told people about my experienses as a teacher at Tvind, the reaction was mistrust: "noo,could it be that bad..aren`t you overreacting?!". Well, I wasn`t, and now after the last times "bad" publicity and after hours of reading these sites I know I`m not alone either. Unfortunately. Annsofi

I have been involved in several Danida projekts, and the salaries payed for tvind members involvement in tvind projects suprise me. Only the most experienced and well educated in the projects I have been involved in, can match the saleries that the Tvind organisation pays its project-leaders. I wounder why somebody would pay someone with only pour competances that kind of money. Wouldn't they be better spend in humanitarien projekts right away, insted of being transferred to other foundations ore companies, in such a suspicious way?

Richard Arnaud (France)

"Whould you get angry if someone start to demand where you spend your private money?"

I certainly would, particularly if my co-workers demanded that I put my money into some shit like Flleseje...

Yes, but if this is even in part from clothes donations this is essentially *other people's* money.

And:

* what 'fund'? * what exactly is the money used for? * how accountable is it? * do people giving old clothes in Europe realise their gift is not supporting a project leader, but instead is going to Tvind? * if they did, would they still give? * why isn't any of this stated publicly and on their boxes?

 

 

yes, it is so that TG members wages go to the fund, but this is their own choice. Tell me when you get your salary arne't you free to choose what to do with it? Whould you get angry if someone start to demand where you spend your private money?

On the question of how much money Tvind 'makes' from its projects, I don't think anyone has mentioned the financing of Teachers Group Project leaders. As I understand it (any way, this is what I have been told) the project leaders are paid quite high salaries in line with the kind of sums qualified aid workers abroad usually get - this is perfectly normal. These salaries are financed from the sale of old clothes in Europe and eastern Europe. Again, so far, quite normal.

Where DAPP and co differ from the usual NGO world is that the project leaders never actually see the money. Because of the 'common time, common economy' principle, which is all highly principled and very laudable, they have opetd to be paid pocket money and expenses rather than a salary. If the salaries are paid out as project costs on paper, in practice the money either stays with or is returned to one of the Tvind financial funds somewhere. With, what is it?, say 250 project leaders each earning say $60,000 that is a lot of money with big accountability and tax implications.

This could also have something to do with the persistent reports of suitcases stuffed with money being carried by TG members by plane from southern Africa to Veije, as claimed in the Danish TV documentary this year. There certainly seems to be something to explain here.

Any comments?

 

heh, well I have to agree that you are right on that one.

But even so, it does show that tvind is not making 'mega profit' from these volunteer programs.

They are probably breaking even, which is what they should officially be doing

 

 

 

Actually opportunity cost is the cost of doing one thing as opposed to doing another. So the correct use of this would be the amount of money you could earn during the eight months of working with Tvind in the US minus the costs of supporting yourself in the US and Africa for 14 months which you estimate as $7000.

Assume that you have a 40 per week job that pays $7/hr (fairly low pay by the way). In eight months you would earn 40 * 7 * 34.5 weeks = $9,660 so the opportunity cost of doing a CCTG program versus going on your own is $1660.

But then again you don't get the "educational experience" of fundraising... :)

Lars

i dont think so even in denmark you can make the cv look good, you just dont mention tvinds name.

only Denmark and 50/50% sweeden would recognise tvind,humana, any other country mainly uk/france/germany etc would not know or care usa only might recognise planet aid, I have read Harvard reports and lecture notes, praising humana as 1 ngo in a list of many,

ON a cv the name is fine. if your worried dont say tvind, which you would not be working for anway, you would have been working for adpp or dapp which have quite good names around the world,

In denmark or sweeden you worked for adpp , none in dnemark knows who that is, not the recruiting office anyway, or you were simply working in africa for a foreign orgnaisation in partnership with major ngo's

"Doing this program also looks very good on your cv for future jobs you might apply for"

Not if any of those future jobs happen to be in Northern Europe!!!

This is what your cv might look like to an employer in say, Denmark:

1993-1997 Smallville High (honor roll, debating society, football team) 1997-2001 Metro College (dean's list, peer counseling) 2001-2004 Cult Membership (hmm...) 2004-...

 

Another point. (see also post below this counter to lars)

To those saying that the figures quoted as costing the participant if he were to live himself for those 14 months , not being met by tvind since their costs are so much lower.

Basically that is not the point. I would guess some of you know what opportunity cost is? It means that it does not matter what the costs to tvind are (or how cheaply they can put you through the program).

what matters is the cost to each individual if he were not doing this program. The cost of living yourself own flat (very low quality sub standard) 300 a month. Sub standard food, 200 a month. 500 a month x 8 is 4,000 , + the cost of 6 months you would be in africa food/accomodation minus the glorius sunshine people/women. 2,000 = total 6,000 (not including if u were to take own flight to africa then+1,000 =7,000) That is the cost to live by yourself 8 months and then go to africa for 6 months.

Now the cost of working with tvind for a year. If you are in the 75% who does not pay initial fee to join program then your costs so far for 8 months are 0. you are also in the 75% that sucks at street fundraising and does some invented job, your financial cost for those 5 or 6 weeks easy work?? 0

The real cost then to joining the program for most participants could be noted as 0, and the opportunity cost of not joining as 7,000

(please see post below this for other important general info)

DL ex volunteer dvldvl@hotmail.com

To Lars and others

You are saying then that financially you are getting half of what you pay. Now that is in theory (according to your figures) if people are actually meeting those targets. Have you been a volunteer with this organisation??

I have. no one makes these targets maybe one person a year out of 900. 75% dont pay the initial program costs (more pay in usa programs very little pay the initial fee in denmark)

And for fundraising, again most people are lucky if they make 25% of the target on the street. Most of the time they suck so bad the school has to make other plans and effectivley invent jobs which do not exisit so the people can finish their fundraising. they pay the students fees from these 'invented jobs' thus incuring more financial loss. Typical job might be painting a few walls in one of the schools which dont need painting. Do this for a few weeks and you have earned the easiest $3,000 you will in your entire life.

So all in all, I would say, if you average it out, tvind makes no profit form these schools, (a loss on most students) the volunteers themselves do get a useful learning experience and they dont not have to be degree educated or whatever to get it .

Alternative gap year programs for volunteering/teaching abroad can cost up to $3000 for only 12 weeks. (how much profit do these organisations make form it???)

Doing this program also looks very good on your cv for future jobs you might apply for.I know very many people form my time as a volunteer who have gone on to reach the highest tier in their chosen industry. And their first break came because of this 1 year gap year with Humana. When your 23 just finished your degree and then gone to Africa for a year and helped manage a project or been responsible for educating 2,000 aids victims that makes for some good employment prospects.

DL

It would be interesting to know the cost per squarmeter the schools pay rent to the owners of their schoolbuildings. How big percentage from the schools' budget goes to paying rent? And further, who are the owners of the schoolbuildings? A fund, a company...owned by whom? I a w:Who takes care of that money? Any headmaster from any Tvind-school feeling urge to answer?

Sigge

 

 

Oops...the formatting got messed up. Here are my estimates on the direct costs of a CCTG program.

Food $ 480 Flights $ 1,650 Housing $ 752 Utilities/Phone $ 200 Vaccinations $ 150 Misc $ 600 subtotal $ 3,832

35 percent overhead $ 1,341 TOTAL $ 5,173

I'm really not sure how one should cost the "educational costs" of a CCTG program since it appears that the majority of the education is the TG's experiential education, i.e., fund-raising, housekeeping, that doesn't cost the TG anything and is essential for the continued functioning of the place.

Regards......Lars

I am not arguing that TG programs are not less expensive but that their costs are so low (after all a point of pride is getting things for free) that there is plenty of money account for.

For example, take a CCTG program of 14 months. 6 months of prep in Yreka, CA, 6 months in Africa and 2 months back in Yreka. The cost of the program is $3,300 and participants are expect to raise an additional $7000 for a total of $10,300. This money covers food, accomindations, any "educational" materials, flights to Africa, vaccinations. According to the CCTG website, Humana covers the expenses in Africa....so let's do the math.

Food = $2 per day * 30 days * 8 months Flight = $1650 (what I could find for a flight from SFO to Harare, Zimbabwee - I'm sure there are cheaper ways to go) Housing = I found a listing for a two bedroom appartment in Yreka for $376 to judge what "market rate" is. Assume 2 people per room = $94 per month * 8 months = $752 Utilities/Phone = $25 per month * 8 months = 200 Vaccinations = I don't really know, how about $150 Misc. = 600

This comes out to a grand total of $3832 of direct costs. Assume 35 percent overhead (to cover admin and outreach) and you still only get about $5200 or about half of what people pay and fundraise

Of course these figures are not the actual cost structure of CCTG but I bet they are close. You can fiddle around a bit but still have a lot left.

Lars

The fact of the matter is that price is really beyond the point here. The difference between Tvind and most other Development charities is that Tvind has a sect-like structure complete with an old guru at the top sippin' cocktails on his penthouse terrace and laughing his ass over both all the idealisitc young volunteers and all the old wanna-be "hippie" teachers that unknowingly or not fund his lavish lifestyle.

Yours,

*<:-)

Hmm, looks like you guys learned your maths at the Moscow School of Economics back in "the day"...

Hello

I like that we are talking mathematics here. Food, housing, transport, airtravel etc costs some money for sure. If you look upon what it costs to do other volunteer programs is it very cheap to do it at one of the Travelling Folk High schools. Check out volunteer programs by yourseelves. You have for ex. Cross cultural solutions that charges a considerable bigger amount for much shorter programs

 

hmmm...but if paid the entire amount in cash you would miss out (gasp) on the "learning experience" of fundraising......

a couple more comments on the math here, while it may cost 300 pounds for a flat and 200 pounds for food on your own these are not the costs that accrue to a TG school. I've always heard the figure of $2 bucks a day for food and who knows how much mortage the TG is paying itself for the housing....during fundraising its free. So the "cost" to Tvind is hardly 4000 pounds unless you include the salaries of the TG members who are busy recruiting the next crop of volunteers.....

 

too many lies and myths around here, most people just exagerate to feel important or make themself seem 'cool'

Here are some basic truths about costs/fundraising etc

Usually you pay 2,500 pounds or abou $3,500 to join a school in Denmark for 14 months. However, 75% of people do not pay this they do netup whcih involves doing a very very easy job for a month or 2 within the organisation , or they get a scholarship and start right away paying nothing.

Now that leaves the fundraising whcih is about 3,000 pounds,. Instead of paying that amount which most young people could never afford you can fundraise your money, (If you payd it in cash you would not have to fundraise). No matter how bad people say it is, it is a fact it has to be done, the schools needs this 3,000 for your participation in the program. You know this beofre you join.

Now comes the good bit.why complain or moan, saying you are being ripped off.?? Think about it. 14 months is a long time, 8 months in Denmark 6 months africa. If you live in own flat or house back home how much is the rent?? in Uk will cost me at least 300 a month for 1 bedroom flat. For food 200 a month. That is 500 a month x 8 (8 months Denmark) = 4,000 pounds. Then you still have the housing in Africa (cheaper i know but still...) and also you are given a salary more than the locals earn $200 a month or so for your food and essential items.

The total cost of all this to tvind is around 5,000 pounds. You are fundraising about 3,500 (most people dont reach their target or do netup type jobs which over pay and are very generous for the fundraising) On average then each person i would say fundraises 1,000 pounds on the street and makes up rest of money doing easy jobs within the organisation.

so that is 4,000 extra tvind is spending on each person to do this course just in housing/food costs. That is not taking into account the costs of the education/special events like the new year concert/cost of having teahers helping/listening to your whining all the time.

In conclusion, if you look at those basic facts , you will see the truth. and not make up lies about how tvind is taking your money

DL ex volunteer Denmark

 

 

The Appeals Court of Western Denmark just ordered DRH-P Sejrens Vej to pay back 4.9 million DKR it received as education funding. Turns out the students spent too much time fundraising and to little hitting the books! Similar cases against the other DRH's likely.

What is the purpose of this site?

There is a lot of information worded very cleverly to suppose a particular negative slant. Okay it dosent take a genius to deduce the opinions of the prodcuers of this site, but what is the motivation? Was there a negative expirence on your part? I read the testominals of those whom traveled to the various projects and nothing struck me as criminal in anyway. Moral and ethically questionable? Yep in my view but Morals and ethics are values applied by individuals based on thier own feelings of right and wrong and cant be universally applied.

So I continued on, I read the reports of the investigations abroad in Europe and the claim of unpaid taxes in the US from the PA operation, yet no actual documents from a governmental burea or office proclaiming a criminal activity in anyway is offered. So I read on, and what struck me was the insinuation of multiple companies within themselves creating an eloborate untraceable paper trail. Yet nothing procludes a company from doing business with one of its subsidiaries. So the impression was that the producer of this site has a moral issue with the fact that they believe that the various entities are not donating to charity as they claim they are. Which seems to me a logical conclusion based on the data here, but it dosent answer the question of why? Why is it a moral issue or something that requires this kind of slanted presentation of material? It would seem to me that this would be something along the lines of what TVIN would do themselves based on the suppositions posed on this page.

I am not writing this to point a moral or ethical finger at anyone. I am intrested in the motivation as to why this page is up. Why the information is presented in this clearly slanted manner, and if the entities of TVIN were moral, ethically and legally corrupt why they would be in exsistance for 25 years? Surely you cant fool all the people all the time right?

I write this because I need to know. Not only for my own personal knowledge as to why this site was done, but to also help me make a critical decision as it pertains to my personal knowledge and expirence within one of the TVIN orginzations.

>> Come on Chris, didn't you too use to make weird >> noises late at night thinking of your great guru?

Another Nameless wonder....

My Guru? Read back over the boards, I was never in the LG, I was a Volunteer, never met Amdi and can safely say hadn't even heard about him till I started reading all the fun stuff here, I went to Tvind to have fun, travel and teach...not to worry about who ran the show.

My Guru...would have to be...hmmm...dunno... my dogs I guess "sleep more, eat more, do less"

Cheers

Chris

RE: immediately previous message... I've received several of these solicitations (different senders)in my angelfire mailbox, the address of which is posted here on the Tvindalert website. Since nobody but Tvindalert readers -- whom I generally WANT to hear from (and angelfire auto-junkmail senders I DON'T want to hear from) use my angelfire address, seeing the same kind of message here makes me think the messages I've been receiving are not auto-junkmail, but from persons who picked up my angelfire address over the Tvindalert site.. The senders always say they're from Africa... I've heard that these soclicitations are going around, but it's sort of peculiar that they're being sent here, and to my folkfree address. To what end??

Not sure what to do with the messages but hit the "block" and "delete" keys... Anybody know if there's a place to report fraudulent solicitations over the net like this one? -- Marianna

I am writing you with trust and confidentiality,my name is AWIJA UDOMA from the Republic of Angola.And i got your contact from a business journal i received at the Togo chamber of commerce,and after due consideration and after going through your profile,i became aware assured of your credibility of handling this profitable transaction.Thus, my humble decision to solicit for your understanding and coperation in this business that will benefit you and i.

At the mid term of the rebellion which is still on till date, my father thinking fast decided to send my brother and i out of the contry(angola)with a total sum of (us$65m)sixty five million united state dollars only, sealed in a diplomatic bag meant for purchase of arms and ammunitions for the rebels and the bills were carefully defaced for security reasons. on arriving to Togo(lome)because we are political asylum seekers, we were not allowed to operate a bank account, so with the instruction of my father i deposited the boxes in a security company, though i did not declear the content to them and unfurtunately because of my fathers political influence he was assasinated. we need you by coming to Togo ,Lome to open a non-residence bank account with any of the local bank though we are still in Nigeria to negotiate the transfer of our money since we can not speak/talk french, it becomes difficult for us to negotiate properly the non-residence account which will enable the onward telegraphic transfer of the funds to your nomited bank account the whole arrangement will be strictly under our supervision and the transaction will be absolute risk-free also the whole transaction will take three working days from the day of your arrival. we intend to share the money upon sucessful completion of the transaction as follows 25% will be entitled to you for your assistance while 75% will be for us should this meet your utmost consideration please give us your earliest reply through mail. feel free to ask any question you consider necessary. the confidentiality in this transaction can be over emphasized as we trust and belive that you will oblige

us the security and attention it demands please treat this transaction with absolute confidenciality thank you very much.

YOURS FAITHFULY

AWIJA UDOMA awija_udoma@yahoo.com

Come on Chris, didn't you too use to make weird noises late at night thinking of your great guru?

She is probably just busy thinking of the great Amdi...

Hi Nameless

Perhaps your neighbour is "shock" not a christian, she might be a Bhuddist, Muslim or any number of other religions that chant their prayers at various times of the day...even before they go to sleep....don't you say your prayers before you go to bed...tut tut tut....

Here's an enlightening thought, try asking her.

Cheers

Chris

Hello Tvindalert

Im a new participant at one of the travelling schools. There are a lot of of things I dont understand about this organisation. Why does some of the teachers chant? I live close to one of the teachrs, and most nights I hear these very strange noises from her room. Is these happening at any of the other schools? I really want to know..

Hi

Never went to Lindersvold, I was at Red House, DRH Hornsjo, DIE Tvind and DRH Tvind. With Hornsjo we went to Zambia, had a great time there, 4 of the team go malaria and all got treatment and blood tests etc etc. I managed our medical and food budgest for our team, the only problem we ever had was when the government changed the bank notes and devalued them , giving everyone in the whole country two days to change their money...boy that was nationwide chaos, queues for miles at the banks.

Cheers

Chris

7th Jan 2002

It is great to see that some twenty former TG members are now willing to testify for the crown in the upcoming lawsuits! I guess Tvind's intimidation of Hans la Cour had the opposite effect as originally intended!

 

To the last poster,

Yes, we all know that you don't get luxuries during a Tvind trip...that's not really what Nick's complaint is about anyway. Its about not getting medical attention and lack care about security and the generally lack of organization and experience that ADPP programs have.

 

To the last poster,

Yes, we all know that you don't get luxuries during a Tvind trip...that's not really what Nick's complaint is about anyway. Its about not getting medical attention and lack care about security and the generally lack of organization and experience that ADPP programs have.

 

Hej,

I was at Lindersvold in 1999 and went off to Angola (Benguela)later that year. I read with interest alot of the comments and articles on this site. I agree with some of them but others seem to be poorly informed and sensationalized. I too encountered problems with TG members both in Denmark and Angola but found that in most cases they were open to persuasion and not simple one dimensional creatures whose every thought and emotion was controlled by the great Amdi. For anyone having doubts about going on a solidarity course or whatever they call it now I'd advise them to go ahead and do it. You'll meet like minded people from all over the world and yeah it can be tough going with fundraising and all but asides from that its great craic. You just have to be well prepared beforehand and realise that your not going to have all the luxuries and stuff that you had at home. I was not aware of being 'brainwashed' at any stage and at the end of it all I was asked if I'd like to join the the famed 'Teacher's Group' I asked loads of questions about it to several members and they were all open and honest with me even explaining finances and the like. Nevertheless I declined. If you join up for a course you will most likely have a very good time and the time I had in Angola was the best experience of my life. Also some of that stuff written by the Canadian bloke (Nick I think) who went to Benguela (and stayed in the Cavaco Valley the supposed malaria hotspot. Absolute bollocks by the way) and got very litttle medical attention from project leaders such as Neil Clark and the others, well I was there and at any stage of illness we were brought by our project leaders to the doctors for a malaria test and all medication was bought for us. One member of our team actually got sick in the middle of the countryside during a field trip and was brought back to Benguela immediately and put into the private hospital at Benguela were he stayed overnight, all at ADPP's cost. Mind you I do agree that Jeanette Rasmussen did seem a bit of the wall. I don't know if she is stil there now. It's probably best if she ain't but it shouldn't put people off going, you can bad people who are useless at their jobs in every walk of life. A few bad stories about individuals shouldn't put you off. The majority of teacher's group people I talked to were pretty nice reasonable people and if I was you I'd give one of the courses a chance before you simply dismiss it because of the content of some of the articles in this site.

Hi All

Happy new Year everyone, seems I got archived while I was on holiday...

Question to the poster 7 down looking for Ex Volunteers late 80 early 90s. There weren't so many around at that time as I remember it, it was still a fairly new idea to bring in volunteers to work at DIE, Small schools and so forth.

NB what's with all the nameless posts...?

Cheers

Chris Dec 2nd 2002

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Gldelig Jul og Godt Nytr!

Right on Marianna!!! :)

Merry Christmas Everybody

 

 

 

 

To the last poster: This is exactly what I found in Virginia in the 1980's -- though it sounds like our case was a more extreme. The kids with the biggest problems suffered the most, but they all had pretty big problems. In our case, there were very few "strong" students (educationally) who would have even had the means to grasp the kind of political drivel our TG teachers were trying to convey to them -- The kids who had been placed at the school by the State -- teenagers -- barely knew the alphabet, and knew enough about the world to say what town they'd come from and what town they were living in right then, that's about it. So, of course, there were very few kids in any kind of favor with the TG. Instead, the "strong" students (physically) "ran" the weaker students -- the boys (20 in number) "ran" the girls (5 or 6 in number) and the older (stronger) kids disdainfully ignored their TG section masters (who were at a complete loss as to how to make this kind of disorganized kid fall into line with their teaching philosophies). There was a pile of complaints including rape, assault, leaving children behind on trips, children breaking, entering and stealing from stores, being found off school property drunk and disorderly, stealing neighbor's vehicles, killing a neighbor's cat, seting fire to a neighbor's property..in essence the kids were left to run wild... clear indications that the TG leaders were not adequately trained to bring things into some kind of control... Yet when their license to operate was rescinded, they put on this great act of astonishment --"like a bolt out of a clear blue sky" was how the director put it...AND THEN, THEY APPLIED FOR ANOTHER LICENSE... maintaining that there was NOTHING WRONG... Another indication (there were many more) that they had no real caring for the kids, but were driven to keep the place going for the money. Do you think, nowadays, if Tvind was offered another opportunity to run a school like this, that they would turn it down? I wouldn't count on it.

In Virginia, Tvind took advantage of the State's desperation for adequate housing and support for emotionally disturbed young people (and "speculated" that they wouldn't be found out by the State). That took a couple of years out of the lives of the kids, who foundered there. All the while the TG piously claimed that they were helping make those kids better. In fact they were putting them at further risk. It WAS disgusting.

Several weeks ago on this message board, there was a posting from a TG member extolling the sense of purpose, high responsibilities, and wonderful privilege of being a teacher. In the context of normal, mainstream teaching responsiblities, it was a lyrically written piece (if naive and idealistic). In the context of its having been placed on this board by the TG, I say, "Oh, please, how cynical!" Marianna

I have been working at the Efterskole in Bogense, and has seen plenty, that confirms Sten Thomsens report, and consider the main problem on the schools, that the strong students are the ones who takes the time and strength from the teachers. The lees fortunate students are left to them selfes, and there is not taken prober care of their problems. I have also seen voulenters getting in over their heads, many times, and the only one to pay for their mistakes is the students. Considering that many of them need special attention, and many of the teachers trying to avoid this issues, i find the leaders of these schools not qulilfied to run the schools. This is backed up by the fact, that most (99pct.) outside teachers stays in the job for no more then max. 2 months. Imagen beging a student at these scholls, and having to a just to a new teacher several times in one school year. I belive that the schools is only exsiting because of the money. Every resonable teacher with knowledge of the social experiments will not allow them. Save the children, close the schools and thereby force the goverment to develop the curses that is needed to bring these young people on the right track: The tvind schools are speculating in the missing effort from the politicians to deal with young peoples problems in a prober way. That is discusting.

hey everyone Have anybody been to one of TG businesses. They write here about farms and a corporations they have. Are there any former TG member who has been working there? How does it look? Its not only about schools I guess they make hell a lot of money doing business.

The news of Amdi Pedersen's retreat on Fisher Island has caused visitors here to focus their comments on the issue of TG leadership. Important though this may be, perhaps there is scope to reconsider other aspects of Tvind school life. My own experience includes a two-year stint in the TG as well as time spent in other employment capacities, initially as a volunteer at an 'efterskole.' This experience was extremely valuable for me and as a young person (early twenties) I learned a great deal. We travelled with our students, organised major cultural events such as the Christmas Concerts and 'sommerteater' and particpated in school-wide sports competitions. At no time were our students in any danger or exposed to any credible threat. I knew a number of TG members who have since left the TG, including Steen Thomsen, who presented himself then as a very different person from the author of his scathingly critical report. He was a very caring and committed, gifted teacher who made enormous differences in the students in his care. But I don't see things in the same way he does in his report. It is a great shame, and an even greater waste of talent that he has been left so embittered. I would welcome the opportunity to chat with him. Yes, there were many questions and issues which I raised before and during my time in the TG. These included educational methods, common time and common distribution and economy, cultural assumptions, lifestyle questions, the whole range, but the debates that ensued were worthwhile and contributed to important change in the TG, initally at my school but later on at others. But this did not stop our often socially and economically disadvantaged students from making tremendous strides in their personal development, and attaining creditworthy school grades at the end of the year or upon school-leaving. I was always proud of what my students were able to achieve at our school, and a number of my former students are still in frequent contact with me and have visited me since. My point is that MANY of the efterskole and DIE volunteers (where are you now?) who I knew at the time (late 80s,early 90s) made important contributions to TG and school life. Persistent questioning and argument paid off, right up the chain of command. Many of the prominent persons and leaders of the TG have been 'demonised' by articles on this site and comments by guestbook contributors butI knew many of those named as people willing both to listen and to make often quite radical changes to their mindsets. A number of the claims and insinuations made by articles on this site are totaly wide of the mark and border on scandalous. They are often sensationalist and geared solely to provoke a negative reaction. They fail to tell the whole story, or even a fair proportion of it. The TG is an experiment in living. Yes, I realise we are talking about peoples' lives but experiments are by their very nature imperfect and subject to change. Perhaps I have laid myself open to criticism. Fair enough, but I would like to reorient this debate to focus on school life and the benefits gained by students at the schools in Denmark. I look forward to further comments.

Tomas' (or Amdi's) use of the Native American story is doubly offensive to me, because I know it is truly a Native American story; I remember reading it recently somewhere else. It's another case of Tvind's twisting of somebody else's story to suit its own needs as it sees fit, when it really doesn't make any sense in the context.

Funnily enough, the story about wolves and hate and love is a story presented to the Teachers' Group not so long ago by Mr. Mogens Amdi Petersen himself; - one of his ways, promoting himself as the wise old Godfather, whilst sitting in his tower (another of his "Fisher Islands"), contemplating, gazing at and embracing in his endless Love all them small, small, belligerent people under him, and considering all their small, small thoughts. So, Thomas, when did you sit in that meeting with your Great Master? And where? Now, please inform us properly. Or at least tell your students about who is behind you and above you - and them. Tell them when you went away for one of your meetings with Mr. Amdi Petersen and heard his babble. There is A LOT you will need to tell your students about yourself and "your" school. If you don't, then please stop all your softspoken shite on this site until the moment you really open up. Just tell frankly about the power structure of the Teachers' Group. That is what you owe your students. Start by telling them the true history of why you forward the "Native American story", as cited by you. Just to make a beginning. After that, get yourself out of the Tvind Cult, and get a life in freedom. (You will not need to lie anymore, not even to your students). By the way, the "Native American story" was sent to you, you mention. By whom? Name? And are you sure the story hasn't been produced by your Master himself? (He sometimes writes such stories to make himself mysterious and impressive.) I feel sure you also remember other texts by Amdi Petersen, Thomas? Remember all the times you have had even big problems finding head and tail in his texts as they are most often not at all as clear as the one presented by you on this site? I guess you realise readers on this site understand the wolf-hate-and-love-text as a way of once again pushing off any criticism? ONE THING: I DO NOT HATE YOU. I know how you are trapped as a TG member, but YOU are the one to break your chains, yourself. And just this advice-people will not carry on trusting you if you don't get to terms with your inner Self.

Well, let me finish my epistle from last night, (3rd down, below... somehow the ending got cut off).. remember, old father Christmas is jolly and fat... put the money in his kettle, NOT the pot of that grim, skinny Dane, Amid P...

"except it is almost impossible to change it if you are in TG, because you will have no means to it and that creates frustration among a lot of people."

BINGO!!!! DING! DING! DING!

You win a cookie:)

And why do you think that the TG has been set up this way? You are getting there my friend, keep on working on it, you will be out of Tvind in no time...

Hatred or love. The tale still makes sense for all of us

From the Native American story you've shared with us, (Tomas, I'm assuming?), I see that you interpret the actions of those of us who question Tvind's activities as "hatred." I find it interesting and curious that you leap to that interpretation... that it appears to you that we are acting out of hate, instead of ... common sense, or a general acknowledgement that there is a (BIG) problem we wish to see 'righted,' or even reasoned 'outrage' --with the explanations for the reasonableness of that outrage appearing right in front of us on this site, if not having been gleaned from our own experiences!!! I believe outrage can be channeled logically and deliberately , as most of the persons contributing stories to this website are expressing themselves logically, and factually. I see hatred as being blind, uncontrolled and unreasoning.

For myself, I don't identify my feelings toward Tvind, or any of it's programs, or Tvindies in general, or even Amdi, or the TG bigwigs, as hatred. As a former teacher, I guess I feel the same way about them, as I would a group of potentially unmanageable 'behavior disordered' students . I acknowledge the history and I appraise the realities of the current behavior. I am always careful to remember to acknowledge whatever the humanity and vulnerability and strengths and goodness of those subjects might be, as well as potential areas where those subjects could act in ways that would be hurtful to themselves or others, and I respond accordingly. Note that living in denial of any of the issues, OR living in hatred of the subjects, does nothing to assist either them in growing, or me in my ability to work beneficially with them. In fact, I would ask you to notice that this approach has nothing at all to do with hatred. It is simply a realistic, mature (and professional) response.

Well, enough of this, tonight... I wish you all (you, too, Tomas, really!)a Merry Christmas/God Jul, and a peaceful New Year. May all the work you do in service to your fellow human beings be bright, ethical, honestly offered, productive, culturally sensitive, and genuinely beneficial to its intended recipients, wherever they are... And remember... old father Christmas is jolly and fat,

"Whould you get angry if someone start to demand where you spend your private money?"

I certainly would, particularly if my co-workers demanded that I put my money into some shit like Flleseje...

NO you did not get it, no one will demand you to put your money into anywhere unless you want it yourself. I mean you get your wages and you have your own right without giving any explanations to spend your own earned money into whatever you want to. TG members take their wages and place them into their own created fund. Then they spend these money (their own money) to whatever they feel like. They build a school or start a project, buy an appartement in Miami etc. What I want to say is if I am in TG I would get insulted when someone start to demand from me to account on my own wages. Ok I am not talking here about funds they got from the state. Basically Tg is not about money it is about a life style and everyone is free to choose what life you want to leave, except it is almost impossible to change it if you are in TG, because you will have no means to it and that creates frustration among a lot of people.

Isn't it funny that whenever the Tvindies run out of arguments they start focusing on our oh so destructive "hate" toward them?

I for one am against Tvind out of love for my fellow man, my wish is that as few people as possible (pref. none!) get sucked in and exploited by them.

Merry X-mas to you all!

Chief Tomas speaks with forked tongue. Ugh.

Yes, much better to tell stories about wolves than address the questions and problems about the TG....btw, another good story apropos of the TG is Animal Farm....especially the poor horse who always tried to work harder and ended up going to the knacker.....Lars

A little story we got sent to us at CCTG that I would like to share with you all.

* The Two Wolves Within *

An old Grandfather said to his grandson, who came to him with anger at a friend who had done him an injustice... "Let me tell you a story. I too, at times, have felt great hate for those who have taken so much, with no sorrow for what they do. But hate wears you down, and does not hurt your enemy. It's like taking poison and wishing your enemy would die. I have struggled with these feelings many times. It is as if there are two wolves inside me. One is good and does no harm. He lives in harmony with all around him and does not take offense when no offense was intended. He will only fight when it is right to do so, and in the right way. But...the other wolf... ah! The littlest thing will send him into a fit of temper. He fights everyone, all of the time, for no reason. He cannot think, because his anger and hate are so great. It is helpless anger, for his anger will change nothing. Sometimes it is hard to live with these two wolves inside me, for both of them try to dominate my spirit." The boy looked intently into his Grandfather's eyes and asked, "Which one wins, Grandfather?" The Grandfather smiled and quietly said, "The one I feed." -- A Native American tale told many times around the Sacred Fire

Annsofi, I was never a member of the TG, but I did teach for a short time at a Tvind run school in the US... the responses you got are not at all unusual... After telling one of my very best friends the story of my experiences, his response was: "Well, if what you say is true..." I felt like my believability was forever diminished in his eyes...( and with his comment, my trust in that friendship was forever diminished in my eyes...)... My youngest sister has (upon being shown Tvindalert and having read through much of it), confessed to me that when I got home from Ake Pecha, she remembers thinking that I'd lost it... that I'd gone crazy. I learned to be secretive about my having worked at Ake Pecha, especially during job interviews, because how could I admit that I had worked with children in such a strange and neglectful place.

But the story is so crazy and unbelievable, isn't it? The Tvindalert site has helped me so much to regain a sense that I really did see what I thought I saw, that I really did go through what I went through, and that what my fellow American teacher pieced together about what appeared to be happening, WAS happening... We weren't crazy!!!

It is so sad that we all went through this... most people who get involved in Tvind programming are very well intentioned going into it.. yet many have been really hurt by their involvement with Tvind.

I am glad there is this forum for sharing experiences and ideas... it sounds like it's been as helpful for you as it's been for me... Marianna

For many years I was alone with my toughts, and when I told people about my experienses as a teacher at Tvind, the reaction was mistrust: "noo,could it be that bad..aren`t you overreacting?!". Well, I wasn`t, and now after the last times "bad" publicity and after hours of reading these sites I know I`m not alone either. Unfortunately. Annsofi

I have been involved in several Danida projekts, and the salaries payed for tvind members involvement in tvind projects suprise me. Only the most experienced and well educated in the projects I have been involved in, can match the saleries that the Tvind organisation pays its project-leaders. I wounder why somebody would pay someone with only pour competances that kind of money. Wouldn't they be better spend in humanitarien projekts right away, insted of being transferred to other foundations ore companies, in such a suspicious way?

Richard Arnaud (France)

"Whould you get angry if someone start to demand where you spend your private money?"

I certainly would, particularly if my co-workers demanded that I put my money into some shit like Flleseje...

Yes, but if this is even in part from clothes donations this is essentially *other people's* money.

And:

* what 'fund'? * what exactly is the money used for? * how accountable is it? * do people giving old clothes in Europe realise their gift is not supporting a project leader, but instead is going to Tvind? * if they did, would they still give? * why isn't any of this stated publicly and on their boxes?

 

 

yes, it is so that TG members wages go to the fund, but this is their own choice. Tell me when you get your salary arne't you free to choose what to do with it? Whould you get angry if someone start to demand where you spend your private money?

On the question of how much money Tvind 'makes' from its projects, I don't think anyone has mentioned the financing of Teachers Group Project leaders. As I understand it (any way, this is what I have been told) the project leaders are paid quite high salaries in line with the kind of sums qualified aid workers abroad usually get - this is perfectly normal. These salaries are financed from the sale of old clothes in Europe and eastern Europe. Again, so far, quite normal.

Where DAPP and co differ from the usual NGO world is that the project leaders never actually see the money. Because of the 'common time, common economy' principle, which is all highly principled and very laudable, they have opetd to be paid pocket money and expenses rather than a salary. If the salaries are paid out as project costs on paper, in practice the money either stays with or is returned to one of the Tvind financial funds somewhere. With, what is it?, say 250 project leaders each earning say $60,000 that is a lot of money with big accountability and tax implications.

This could also have something to do with the persistent reports of suitcases stuffed with money being carried by TG members by plane from southern Africa to Veije, as claimed in the Danish TV documentary this year. There certainly seems to be something to explain here.

Any comments?

 

heh, well I have to agree that you are right on that one.

But even so, it does show that tvind is not making 'mega profit' from these volunteer programs.

They are probably breaking even, which is what they should officially be doing

 

 

 

Actually opportunity cost is the cost of doing one thing as opposed to doing another. So the correct use of this would be the amount of money you could earn during the eight months of working with Tvind in the US minus the costs of supporting yourself in the US and Africa for 14 months which you estimate as $7000.

Assume that you have a 40 per week job that pays $7/hr (fairly low pay by the way). In eight months you would earn 40 * 7 * 34.5 weeks = $9,660 so the opportunity cost of doing a CCTG program versus going on your own is $1660.

But then again you don't get the "educational experience" of fundraising... :)

Lars

i dont think so even in denmark you can make the cv look good, you just dont mention tvinds name.

only Denmark and 50/50% sweeden would recognise tvind,humana, any other country mainly uk/france/germany etc would not know or care usa only might recognise planet aid, I have read Harvard reports and lecture notes, praising humana as 1 ngo in a list of many,

ON a cv the name is fine. if your worried dont say tvind, which you would not be working for anway, you would have been working for adpp or dapp which have quite good names around the world,

In denmark or sweeden you worked for adpp , none in dnemark knows who that is, not the recruiting office anyway, or you were simply working in africa for a foreign orgnaisation in partnership with major ngo's

"Doing this program also looks very good on your cv for future jobs you might apply for"

Not if any of those future jobs happen to be in Northern Europe!!!

This is what your cv might look like to an employer in say, Denmark:

1993-1997 Smallville High (honor roll, debating society, football team) 1997-2001 Metro College (dean's list, peer counseling) 2001-2004 Cult Membership (hmm...) 2004-...

 

Another point. (see also post below this counter to lars)

To those saying that the figures quoted as costing the participant if he were to live himself for those 14 months , not being met by tvind since their costs are so much lower.

Basically that is not the point. I would guess some of you know what opportunity cost is? It means that it does not matter what the costs to tvind are (or how cheaply they can put you through the program).

what matters is the cost to each individual if he were not doing this program. The cost of living yourself own flat (very low quality sub standard) 300 a month. Sub standard food, 200 a month. 500 a month x 8 is 4,000 , + the cost of 6 months you would be in africa food/accomodation minus the glorius sunshine people/women. 2,000 = total 6,000 (not including if u were to take own flight to africa then+1,000 =7,000) That is the cost to live by yourself 8 months and then go to africa for 6 months.

Now the cost of working with tvind for a year. If you are in the 75% who does not pay initial fee to join program then your costs so far for 8 months are 0. you are also in the 75% that sucks at street fundraising and does some invented job, your financial cost for those 5 or 6 weeks easy work?? 0

The real cost then to joining the program for most participants could be noted as 0, and the opportunity cost of not joining as 7,000

(please see post below this for other important general info)

DL ex volunteer dvldvl@hotmail.com

To Lars and others

You are saying then that financially you are getting half of what you pay. Now that is in theory (according to your figures) if people are actually meeting those targets. Have you been a volunteer with this organisation??

I have. no one makes these targets maybe one person a year out of 900. 75% dont pay the initial program costs (more pay in usa programs very little pay the initial fee in denmark)

And for fundraising, again most people are lucky if they make 25% of the target on the street. Most of the time they suck so bad the school has to make other plans and effectivley invent jobs which do not exisit so the people can finish their fundraising. they pay the students fees from these 'invented jobs' thus incuring more financial loss. Typical job might be painting a few walls in one of the schools which dont need painting. Do this for a few weeks and you have earned the easiest $3,000 you will in your entire life.

So all in all, I would say, if you average it out, tvind makes no profit form these schools, (a loss on most students) the volunteers themselves do get a useful learning experience and they dont not have to be degree educated or whatever to get it .

Alternative gap year programs for volunteering/teaching abroad can cost up to $3000 for only 12 weeks. (how much profit do these organisations make form it???)

Doing this program also looks very good on your cv for future jobs you might apply for.I know very many people form my time as a volunteer who have gone on to reach the highest tier in their chosen industry. And their first break came because of this 1 year gap year with Humana. When your 23 just finished your degree and then gone to Africa for a year and helped manage a project or been responsible for educating 2,000 aids victims that makes for some good employment prospects.

DL

It would be interesting to know the cost per squarmeter the schools pay rent to the owners of their schoolbuildings. How big percentage from the schools' budget goes to paying rent? And further, who are the owners of the schoolbuildings? A fund, a company...owned by whom? I a w:Who takes care of that money? Any headmaster from any Tvind-school feeling urge to answer?

Sigge

 

 

Oops...the formatting got messed up. Here are my estimates on the direct costs of a CCTG program.

Food $ 480 Flights $ 1,650 Housing $ 752 Utilities/Phone $ 200 Vaccinations $ 150 Misc $ 600 subtotal $ 3,832

35 percent overhead $ 1,341 TOTAL $ 5,173

I'm really not sure how one should cost the "educational costs" of a CCTG program since it appears that the majority of the education is the TG's experiential education, i.e., fund-raising, housekeeping, that doesn't cost the TG anything and is essential for the continued functioning of the place.

Regards......Lars

I am not arguing that TG programs are not less expensive but that their costs are so low (after all a point of pride is getting things for free) that there is plenty of money account for.

For example, take a CCTG program of 14 months. 6 months of prep in Yreka, CA, 6 months in Africa and 2 months back in Yreka. The cost of the program is $3,300 and participants are expect to raise an additional $7000 for a total of $10,300. This money covers food, accomindations, any "educational" materials, flights to Africa, vaccinations. According to the CCTG website, Humana covers the expenses in Africa....so let's do the math.

Food = $2 per day * 30 days * 8 months Flight = $1650 (what I could find for a flight from SFO to Harare, Zimbabwee - I'm sure there are cheaper ways to go) Housing = I found a listing for a two bedroom appartment in Yreka for $376 to judge what "market rate" is. Assume 2 people per room = $94 per month * 8 months = $752 Utilities/Phone = $25 per month * 8 months = 200 Vaccinations = I don't really know, how about $150 Misc. = 600

This comes out to a grand total of $3832 of direct costs. Assume 35 percent overhead (to cover admin and outreach) and you still only get about $5200 or about half of what people pay and fundraise

Of course these figures are not the actual cost structure of CCTG but I bet they are close. You can fiddle around a bit but still have a lot left.

Lars

The fact of the matter is that price is really beyond the point here. The difference between Tvind and most other Development charities is that Tvind has a sect-like structure complete with an old guru at the top sippin' cocktails on his penthouse terrace and laughing his ass over both all the idealisitc young volunteers and all the old wanna-be "hippie" teachers that unknowingly or not fund his lavish lifestyle.

Yours,

*<:-)

Hmm, looks like you guys learned your maths at the Moscow School of Economics back in "the day"...

Hello

I like that we are talking mathematics here. Food, housing, transport, airtravel etc costs some money for sure. If you look upon what it costs to do other volunteer programs is it very cheap to do it at one of the Travelling Folk High schools. Check out volunteer programs by yourseelves. You have for ex. Cross cultural solutions that charges a considerable bigger amount for much shorter programs

 

hmmm...but if paid the entire amount in cash you would miss out (gasp) on the "learning experience" of fundraising......

a couple more comments on the math here, while it may cost 300 pounds for a flat and 200 pounds for food on your own these are not the costs that accrue to a TG school. I've always heard the figure of $2 bucks a day for food and who knows how much mortage the TG is paying itself for the housing....during fundraising its free. So the "cost" to Tvind is hardly 4000 pounds unless you include the salaries of the TG members who are busy recruiting the next crop of volunteers.....

 

too many lies and myths around here, most people just exagerate to feel important or make themself seem 'cool'

Here are some basic truths about costs/fundraising etc

Usually you pay 2,500 pounds or abou $3,500 to join a school in Denmark for 14 months. However, 75% of people do not pay this they do netup whcih involves doing a very very easy job for a month or 2 within the organisation , or they get a scholarship and start right away paying nothing.

Now that leaves the fundraising whcih is about 3,000 pounds,. Instead of paying that amount which most young people could never afford you can fundraise your money, (If you payd it in cash you would not have to fundraise). No matter how bad people say it is, it is a fact it has to be done, the schools needs this 3,000 for your participation in the program. You know this beofre you join.

Now comes the good bit.why complain or moan, saying you are being ripped off.?? Think about it. 14 months is a long time, 8 months in Denmark 6 months africa. If you live in own flat or house back home how much is the rent?? in Uk will cost me at least 300 a month for 1 bedroom flat. For food 200 a month. That is 500 a month x 8 (8 months Denmark) = 4,000 pounds. Then you still have the housing in Africa (cheaper i know but still...) and also you are given a salary more than the locals earn $200 a month or so for your food and essential items.

The total cost of all this to tvind is around 5,000 pounds. You are fundraising about 3,500 (most people dont reach their target or do netup type jobs which over pay and are very generous for the fundraising) On average then each person i would say fundraises 1,000 pounds on the street and makes up rest of money doing easy jobs within the organisation.

so that is 4,000 extra tvind is spending on each person to do this course just in housing/food costs. That is not taking into account the costs of the education/special events like the new year concert/cost of having teahers helping/listening to your whining all the time.

In conclusion, if you look at those basic facts , you will see the truth. and not make up lies about how tvind is taking your money

DL ex volunteer Denmark

 

 

The Appeals Court of Western Denmark just ordered DRH-P Sejrens Vej to pay back 4.9 million DKR it received as education funding. Turns out the students spent too much time fundraising and to little hitting the books! Similar cases against the other DRH's likely.

There is a lot of information worded very cleverly to suppose a particular negative slant. Okay it dosent take a genius to deduce the opinions of the prodcuers of this site, but what is the motivation? Was there a negative expirence on your part? I read the testominals of those whom traveled to the various projects and nothing struck me as criminal in anyway. Moral and ethically questionable? Yep in my view but Morals and ethics are values applied by individuals based on thier own feelings of right and wrong and cant be universally applied.

So I continued on, I read the reports of the investigations abroad in Europe and the claim of unpaid taxes in the US from the PA operation, yet no actual documents from a governmental burea or office proclaiming a criminal activity in anyway is offered. So I read on, and what struck me was the insinuation of multiple companies within themselves creating an eloborate untraceable paper trail. Yet nothing procludes a company from doing business with one of its subsidiaries. So the impression was that the producer of this site has a moral issue with the fact that they believe that the various entities are not donating to charity as they claim they are. Which seems to me a logical conclusion based on the data here, but it dosent answer the question of why? Why is it a moral issue or something that requires this kind of slanted presentation of material? It would seem to me that this would be something along the lines of what TVIN would do themselves based on the suppositions posed on this page.

I am not writing this to point a moral or ethical finger at anyone. I am intrested in the motivation as to why this page is up. Why the information is presented in this clearly slanted manner, and if the entities of TVIN were moral, ethically and legally corrupt why they would be in exsistance for 25 years? Surely you cant fool all the people all the time right?

I write this because I need to know. Not only for my own personal knowledge as to why this site was done, but to also help me make a critical decision as it pertains to my personal knowledge and expirence within one of the TVIN orginzations.

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